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Model 25 air tube sizing and... |
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FireMark 
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Joined: May-23-2022 Location: Niceville, FL Points: 10 |
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 Topic: Model 25 air tube sizing and...Posted: May-24-2022 at 3:15pm |
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Hey guys, after going through all the model 25 posts I have a question. I'm new to the Daisy family. I never thought at this stage of life I'd be wanting to rebuild a BB gun. The Crosman 760 I had as a teen is long gone. My FiLaw was cleaning out some things and gave me two BB guns. I thought they'd be wall hangers for the shop. One was a neat pump Daisy that I was happy to learn is a model 25. The other is at Mac1 Airguns getting a rebuild as it turned out to be a Benjamin 310. The Daisy was all there - or I thought it was. Wood pistol grip stock, 6 slot tootsie roll forearm. small take down screw. fixed front sight, screw-elevated rear sight, fancy engraving on blued finish, reinforcement rib on cocking lever. The power plant has the 32 coil flat spring. Version ??? I began looking at model 25 reviews here and on Youtube and decided not to let the Daisy be treated less than its brother the Benjamin... I loaded some Daisy Premium BBs and tried shooting. Nothing! Back to Youtube to watch the disassembly and restoration videos. After tearing the weapon down I understood the problem - no air tube (AT)! And of course the leather seals were mush. I have since ordered the plunger head, air tube, and seals assembly from JGairguns. The plunger isn't exactly like my old one but for the sake of simplicity I bought the complete kit. In preparation I have scrubbed the "barrel" and abutment washer clean as a whistle with a 12 gauge bristle and added some lube. The old washers were literally like old bubble gum. This brings me to my question(s)... I know to soak the seals in 20 or 30 ND oil before setting them into the barrel and onto plunger head. Next I need to trim the air tube to the correct size - and the correct size is??? Do I want just the tip of the AT to just clear the Shot Tube to allow the BB to load? In other words - the tip of the AT when the rifle is cocked stays nearly in contact with the BB just inside the ST. And when fired the tip of the AT pushes the BB forward followed by the compression propelling it to the target. What's the best way to trim the AT? Dremel Tool with cut-off disk? Jewels saw? I've drawn a mock-up of the parts as they sit in the gun and estimated the length of the AT to be 3"-3.25". Does this sound right to you? After trimming the end will I need to chamfer the inside and outside of the tip? I'd love to do the 7/64" AT conversion but that's for another day once I have a baseline... I also understand once everything is back together I need to drop some oil from the front and rear of the gun with the cocking lever part ways back. I am also in need of a ST retainer spring if anyone has a extra that I could pay you for. I missed adding that to the JG order and don't want the hassle of another (minimum) order, shipping, insurance, staging charge... for the three dollar part! I've learned a lot from 275 pages of Questions/posts here... Never saw anyone asking about drilling an oil-hole in the barrel. Is that an option? Would It be located right over the plunger head seal once the gun is cocked? Looking forward to the hard hitting of my new to me old model 25. Thanks for any and all suggestions. And possibly for a retainer spring?
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Be safe, Mark V.
"the Desire to serve, the Ability to perform, and the Courage to act" Air Force Fire Protection |
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undertaker
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Joined: September-17-2021 Location: Fort Worth Points: 228 |
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Posted: May-24-2022 at 6:13pm |
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Mark, if you bought the air tube/seal assembly from JG, it should be good to go when you get it. It should feed the BB's just fine. If there is an issue, the gun will need to be fully assembled anyway in order to check the air tube length. To do that, you will need a piece of stiff wire that is longer than the shot tube that will fit inside the barrel. I use a 3/16" piece fo drill rod. With the shot tube removed, insert the rod until it just clears the hole where the bb enters the shot tube and make a mark or apply a piece of tape to the rod. Now, re-install the shot tube and drop the rod down the barrel until it contacts tghe air tube. Your mark should be sticking out past the end of the shot tube. Bring the slide to the fully cocked postion and see if the mark on your rod is flush or slightly below the end of the shot tube . If so, the length should be good. If the air tube is too short, it will feed more than 1 BB at a time. Too long, and the BB will not feed. Be aware that the Model 25 will shoot 2 BB's at a time on the first shot unless you cock the rifle before inserting the shot tube. As far as cutting the length, I just use a Dremmel cut off wheel. Good luck
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FireMark
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Joined: May-23-2022 Location: Niceville, FL Points: 10 |
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Posted: May-24-2022 at 7:02pm |
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Undertaker, I was hoping you might chime in... I've read quite a few of your posts. I had been taking my measurements from the screw end of the ST. If I understand you correctly I need to go from the front sight end and work my way back to the AT. I had read a earlier post by you but wasn't fully understanding the direction to take. Am I correct that when cocked the end of the AT is still in the very back of the ST? The AT draws back only enough to allow the BB to enter the ST? Firing is not so much smacking the BB out as it is a short push to dislodge and then the compression takes over. If the AT was drawn way back and was off center I could envision accuracy being thrown off and the AT breaking off due to impacting the ST. I also understand the point the Muzzle down to allow on BB to fall out drill. Hell, I might be brave enough to cock the gun before inserting the ST. I am still looking for a good used retainer spring in order to make my gun fully functional. I have loaded my ST and the slide delivers a BB up and the BB stays in place. I don't see a swage or a punch so I think I need the spring clip. I am planning to shot the Daisy Premium steel BBs not lead. After the gun is shooting I'd like to get a current generation Daisy ST and maybe even try out the (BlackBarrelCustoms) carbon fiber ST modification along with the 7/64" AT overboar. Thanks for the confirmation on cutting the AT using the Dremel. Fingers crossed I can leave well enough alone and not have to cut. JGairguns mentioned the need to cut the AT in the part description. They say theirs is manufactured longer thus the trimming. We'll see as the assembly is supposed to arrive tomorrow via mule - USPS. From the JG web site: "Complete plunger head for Daisy 25, 80, 101-33, 102-36, 108-39, 111-40,
155, King 2236, and others complete with new leather seals. These are
either a reproduction or rebuilt factory plunger head. The air tube
length may have to be shortened. This is trial and error. It's different
for each gun due to spring compression and seal thickness. Start small.
These are for the guns made in Plymouth Michigan. Same as numerous
Daisy part numbers, including: 10418."
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Be safe, Mark V.
"the Desire to serve, the Ability to perform, and the Courage to act" Air Force Fire Protection |
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undertaker
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Joined: September-17-2021 Location: Fort Worth Points: 228 |
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Posted: May-24-2022 at 7:16pm |
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Am I correct that when cocked the end of the AT is still in the very back of the ST? The AT draws back only enough to allow the BB to enter the ST? Firing is not so much smacking the BB out as it is a short push to dislodge and then the compression takes over. If the AT was drawn way back and was off center I could envision accuracy being thrown off and the AT breaking off due to impacting the ST.
CORRECT There are other ways to calculate air tube length but this method works for me. I wish I had the ability to post pictures as it would be easier to explain.
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FireMark
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Posted: May-24-2022 at 7:47pm |
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TANGO Undertaker, I am a firefighter/Chief and I think on things too much sometimes. I have already spent more than what the gun originally sold for - as we all have. The Benjamin is a whole 'nother story. I saw Cobalt's post with pics about the collector that is selling off on FleaBay - WoW! I understand your direction. I already had traced out the barrel, abutment washer, seals, and power plant on a piece of cardboard. I calculated the point to where the slide, plunger, and AT would be when the gun is cocked and made a rough calculation as to how long the AT would be. The unknown is the AT that I bought - JG doesn't post the specifications. You get what you get and we will not allow you to add any bit!
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Be safe, Mark V.
"the Desire to serve, the Ability to perform, and the Courage to act" Air Force Fire Protection |
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jackdog
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Joined: June-01-2016 Location: Cape may, NJ Points: 399 |
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Posted: May-25-2022 at 12:02pm |
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JAY ,(GUMSLINGER) HAD THIS POSTED QUITE A WHILE AGO. I MEASURED MINE ALSO AT THE TIME AND CONFIRMED HIS PIC. IT WAS 3 INCHES FROM THE LEATHER SEAL SURFACE TO TIP OF AIR TUBE...
PIC OF MY PLUNGER  JAY'S POST...... SHOWS THE TWO TYPES OF PLUNGER HEADS  |
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FireMark
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Posted: May-25-2022 at 6:53pm |
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Thanks Jackdog, I would love to find a pristine air tube like pic 1. That's the type that was in my gun. The AT had been broken off and was long gone. Does any vendor you know of have that NOS assembly for sale? JGairguns sells the AT like in the bottom pic. We'll have to see how the performance is in the gun along with the new seals. I had read the post by Cobalt that had pics of the lady workers putting with parts together with a hydraulic press in order to make the AT assemblies. It's interesting to see how they (used to) make the ribbed cap with the two holes and then press in the tube and crimp it onto the plunger. These days it's just the flat plunger and the tube with a slit. I just now noticed the cuts in the washer that backs up the seal on the new AT. My washer is just round and flat - I hope that it will fit!
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Be safe, Mark V.
"the Desire to serve, the Ability to perform, and the Courage to act" Air Force Fire Protection |
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jackdog
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Joined: June-01-2016 Location: Cape may, NJ Points: 399 |
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Posted: May-26-2022 at 1:04pm |
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NO VENDORS I KNOW OF WITH NOS PLUNGER HEADS, I WISH I KNEW OF ONE CAUSE I NEED 3!!
BEEN LOOKING FOR YEARS FOR SOME LEATHER PLUNGER HEADS WITH THE AIR TUBE. BTW... FLAT WASHER WILL WORK FINE. |
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FireMark
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Posted: May-26-2022 at 3:01pm |
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JD. when I called to ask Daisy about parts the nice receptionist first said, "Old or new gun". When I said old she said there were no parts for old guns as the vendors had bought them all. She sent me a list of the vendors. Top of the list was who I contacted. I know from collecting clocks that often when I call a vendor and say I need a part - their response is, "We'll repair it for you, we don't sell parts"... JGairguns sells parts - but not NOS parts :( So we are in the same boat. It's likely the only way we will come by a capped plunger head air tube is to buy a junker at a flea market or garage sale. I wonder what the difference is between the two plunger/air tube assemblies they sell? There's what I bought - DAI25PHCL the pic doesn't show the air hole or air slit. Then there's the DAI25ATL which they say has a soldered in AT with round hole and is for 1910-1958 guns. On both they say the AT is long and may have to be shortened. The NOS capped plunger head had two holes and would seem to deliver higher air velocity from the end of the AT. How much compression are we talking about in a three inch stroke? I used to shoot M16s and knew that due to the velocity if the bullet grazed the target there was likely to be damage. How much compression pushes a BB at ~300fps? Ah, the day's long gone when you could call up Daisy and get the P-26 plunger head for thirty five cents. They had a minimum order too - fifty cents!!! pointy-end forward |
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Be safe, Mark V.
"the Desire to serve, the Ability to perform, and the Courage to act" Air Force Fire Protection |
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Gumslinger
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Joined: March-20-2019 Location: North Florida Points: 400 |
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Posted: May-26-2022 at 9:26pm |
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Hello FireMark. Try this link to get some more information on your back-up washer question. There is more to these washers than meets the eye. Good luck |
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