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No 25 leather re-seal question

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Gumslinger View Drop Down
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    Posted: March-10-2020 at 10:38pm

In resealing the leather No 25s, I realized the plunger head / plunger assembly was different from the newer neoprene seals in a big way. This is better shown in the pictures. The main spring in the neoprene models is secured behind a plunger cross-pin, putting no pressure on the neoprene seal’s backup washer. But the leather-seal plunger assembly has the main spring pressing directly upon the leather seal’s backup washer. Why, I wondered, did the leather seal not get squashed after repeated firing cycles? These older springs are also mighty tight, even on an uncocked gun.

 It appears the Daisy engineers did some close tolerance work, tapering the air tube assembly’s shaft, and using a custom washer to slide up to, but not squash, the leather seal in front of it. This washer gets hammered hard over the years, (probably why they are so hard to remove sometimes) but it seems to have served its purpose.

 Has this ever been discussed before?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BSAGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-11-2020 at 5:17am
That's great information, Jay and very well explained/documented.  Thanks for sharing this.
Be Prepared
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cobalt327 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-11-2020 at 6:55am
Originally posted by Gumslinger Gumslinger wrote:

Has this ever been discussed before?


Not as far as I know, it hasn't. I agree with BSAGuy's assessment- excellent observation and documentation!

I have a photo taken by a member of THR, hinz57, of the piston/air tube assembly from an early nickel plated 102-36 that shows what looks to be a small piece of metal that is either a piece put there to act as a stop for the washer, or it has been sheared from the assembly by the washer. When he posted the photo, I didn't think to ask about it, and now he's not active there anymore.Unhappy


It's worth mentioning there were at least two, and probably more, different types of the leather piston/air tube assemblies. The two shown in this thread are
different from each other.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gumslinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-11-2020 at 9:18am
Thanks for the kind replies.
I discovered this by simply questioning whether I could replace the original washers during the re-seal process. You know--a simple swap out from the hardware store. (Fat chance). It seems to be a custom fit by Daisy. Take my measurement with a bit of skepticism--I am neither a machinist nor eagle-of-eye. Far from it.  Also, these are old, banged-up versions of their former selves, strictly from the No.25 model. I don’t have enough experience with other Daisy models to know if this situation exists across the line, but I put this out there so people won’t just place any old washer on their rebuilds without at least looking into it first.

Original leather washer:       (not interchangeable with the neoprene washers)

            --11/16” OD                (.688”)             [just under 3/4”]          17.46mm

            --23/64” ID                 (.359”)             [just under 3/8”]            9.13mm

            --1.57”--1.60” thick     ---------                                           39.8-40.6mm

 Tapered stem size:

            --9/16” OA length

            --21/64” at butt           (.328”)

            --11/32” at midpoint   (.344”)

            --3/8” at the top           (.375”)

 Leather seal: (new)

            --13/16”   OD

            --3/8”        ID

            --3/16”      thick (or less)

 New Version Steel Washer for neoprene seals

            --3/4”      OD

            --25/64”  ID

            --1.57”--1.60” thick

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackdog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-11-2020 at 10:32pm

Jay , Thank you for posting this information. Great information and fantastic pics of your Leather Plunger head for the 25.  Analysis of the plunger head washer was very interesting.   I have two 1920 era 25's that both have the same problem.  The Air Tubes are broken off the plunger head.  (see pic).   I thought the plunger head was one piece with the leather washer.  For the love of Mike I have not been able to separate that washer from the plunger head and always assumed it was a permanent washer and not removable.  But now that I see your pictures it seems that they are just stuck on the cone shaped plunger head.  I will try to separate them just out of curiosity.  I Have been looking for new complete plungers for a while.  I hope I can find two.  Thanks. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gumslinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-12-2020 at 12:31am
I had the exact same thought until I saw a picture on the Internet showing the washer off. In my case I had to destroy the already bad leather washer to get room to 'rock' the washer off. Be very careful not to distort it--I've have yet to find a substitute. Tomorrow I am going to carefully pry the crimped-on cap off the air tube end and see what is under there--and if it is possible to re-attach a missing air tube. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gumslinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-12-2020 at 9:21pm

I had a really stuck washer this morning. Now--knowing they are hard to find--I wanted a safer way to remove them for reuse. I found a loose steel washer with a 5/8” ID hole. This is wide enough for the crimped head of the air tube to fit through, but not our stuck washer. I opened the jaws of my bench vise wide enough to clear the washer hole, and placed the plunger head, (air tube down) through the steel washer’s hole. A surprisingly light knock with the rubber hammer and it was off. Safer & easier!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackdog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-12-2020 at 10:09pm
Jay I'm going try that.  I tried yesterday to hammer one out with the plunger head balanced between two pieces of wood spaced such that the "crimped" head would pass through but not the washer.  Did not work too well, but your solution looks good to me.  Great idea.  Will give it a shot.  Then I need to figure out if I can put a new shot tube on the head.. Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackdog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-12-2020 at 10:13pm
Jay here is another question for you.  How does the air get into the air tube sticking out of the plunger head?  Since I do not have a whole plunger to look at, the air tube must have some sort of hole in it to allow the compressed air to go out the end of the tube...  have a pic of this?   Thanks as always.. Rick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gumslinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-12-2020 at 10:38pm
Yes Rick I am working on that right now. I pried the crimped-on air tube cap off earlier and answered a lot of my questions--your included. I'll post the whole spiel tomorrow.

As far as the 'stuck' of anything mechanical, I swear by a pre-soak with Liquid Wrench.
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