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No 25 leather re-seal question

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jackdog View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackdog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-13-2020 at 9:59pm
Mark, Thanks for the clarification on why my plunger head looks so different then the ones Jay is working on. Your Photos help me a lot.  I knew it had to have a hole or slit in the tube to allow the air to expel.  I think your rationale as to why the tube would eventually break is right on.  The two 25's I have are both pre 1920 so after a hundred years I guess it would have to eventually happen. 
The Patent info was interesting.  I have plenty of synthetic plunger heads , but have been reluctant to replace the originals with them.  I vaguely remember reading many years ago that without the "Oil Here" hole they tend to not lubricate as well as the leathers.  Plus I wanted to at least try to keep them as original as possible...  thanks for the info you provided.  Thoughtful as always...
Rick
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jackdog View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackdog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-13-2020 at 10:28pm
Jay, unbelievable pics with nice explanation on the air intake on this type of leather plunger head.

Mine obviously is different then that.  I had to run my mother-in-law to doctors today and did not have time to try to separate my plunger head, but will give it a try tomorrow (I hope)... Did not know there were several types of leather plunger heads...

Great analysis on these and I am learning a lot from your excellent posts.   I'd love to shoot my old 25's someday and you are helping me get there. 

Will try to post pics of my separated head  soon.. Rick

Just an aside... I notice the workable length of the air tubes appear to be much different??? 
I assume they need to draw back far enough to load the next BB, but not far enough to go by the abutment stop and washer.  But the leather one is significantly longer and wonder if you put the rubber plunger in , will it actually work??
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Gumslinger View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gumslinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-13-2020 at 10:47pm
Easy answer is--I don't know. I want to figure that one out myself. In your case what we need to do is come up with is an undamaged plunger-head of your vintage and to physically measure its air tube length/width, etc. Hopefully someone reading this has access to one.
BTW, I remember (from somewhere in a forum) that your type of plunger-head can indeed be cleaned of old solder, and a new air tube inserted and soldered in its place. 
In my case I was shocked to find the air tube only lightly (?) attached to the cap piece. This air tube was already broken off & long gone, so I don't know if it was formed all in one piece, or soldered together from two pieces. More to learn...
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jackdog View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackdog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-16-2020 at 4:53pm
Here are pictures of my plunger head taken apart.  Jay used your technique and it worked very well!
It appears this had a small tab, at least it looks like a tab.  It was not as pronounced as the one Mark showed in his picture, but i am sure it is some sort of protrusion below the collar about 1/16 inch down.  Where the leather washer sat.  It may have been there to stop the plunger washer from moving up too tightly on the leather, but only a guess. 








 
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Gumslinger View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gumslinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-16-2020 at 5:56pm
Great pictures!---they will help a lot! If you can, snap a picture of the 'face' of the piece so we can see the hole where the air tube would insert. I am curious if your style used the same spec's as the next generation of air tubes. That might help a lot in a retro-fit to fixing yours.
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jackdog View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackdog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-16-2020 at 10:01pm
Ok here is the face of the plunger head.... It kinda looks like it been thru WW3, but the picture seems to enhance all the little flaws you really do not notice in person.. Anyway it had a crimp (or more likely  could have been damage) at one point on the edge.   Never could figure that out. But the picture shows it pretty good. 



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Gumslinger View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gumslinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-16-2020 at 10:57pm
Wow, that looks like a find from an archaeological dig.....nonetheless, it looks perfectly serviceable with a new air tube and leather seal. What we need is someone to look thru their BB gun junk drawers and find us an intact unit. If we can get the specs off of it, something could be done to retrofit your guns into shooting shape. Barring that...would it be possible to use later parts in its place? I have no experience with guns of your vintage, and what could be swapped out. I am going to post a link to the No. 25 patents page as some of the sketches there might be of use to you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gumslinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-16-2020 at 11:25pm
The patent numbers stamped on BB guns can be viewed as sketches, drawings, and descriptive text here:
Once on the site, type in your patent number. For my older No. 25s, I have to type in a 'zero' before my patent number. Like this: my patent # 2,758,586 will go in as 02758586 (no commas). Click "View patent". On the left you can select 'front page', or 'drawings' , or 'full document'. All of these can be downloaded or printed out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gumslinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-16-2020 at 11:37pm

Air tube evolution for No.25 in patents:

1,136,470

1913-1915 the No.25 pump gun is described & patented. The plunger head ‘core’ is a machined chunk of metal fitted with an air tube. This air tube is soldered into a socket provided in its metal face. The air tube has an air inlet near its base. A leather ‘packing’ seal is affixed to this ‘core’ apparatus.

 2,204,370

In 1938 a new patent is applied for. One aim of which is to eliminate the soldering operation, and thus eliminating the drilling of the ‘core’ hole for the air tube. Both simply money-saving ideas.

Followed immediately by this:

 2,204,372

In 1938 a concurrent patent is applied for. This is to overcome the recognized breakage of the air tubes in the original design. (mind you--this is 23 years after 1915). The failures were blamed on the air inlet hole in the air tube--believing it formed a weak spot in the tube itself.

So the air inlet ‘cap’ design is patented, leaving the air tube intact with no cut-in ‘weak spots’.

 2,758,586

In 1953 a new patent is applied for, this time to address the air tube failures following the 1938 patent changes. This was blamed on the rigid (metal) mounting previously used. So the well-known rubber-like mounting material was introduced. This did double duty as a leather-seal replacement. [the seal material mentioned in this patent refers to “heat & oil resistant buna rubber”]. It is possible another material was / is used. I have heard the seals referred to as ‘neoprene’.

 A second reason for improvement was due to the 1938-style air tube cap pounding the abutment leather washer to death (“after 10,000 shots…”). The grooved face on the new neoprene piston seal was also meant to protect the face of the new neoprene abutment seal.   [see leather picture]

Daisy quickly realized they needed an "Oil hole" for this new seal, as the guns were seizing up as the neoprene seals jammed in use.



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cobalt327 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cobalt327 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-17-2020 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by jackdog jackdog wrote:

Here are pictures of my plunger head taken apart.  Jay used your technique and it worked very well!
It appears this had a small tab, at least it looks like a tab.  It was not as pronounced as the one Mark showed in his picture, but i am sure it is some sort of protrusion below the collar about 1/16 inch down.  Where the leather washer sat.  It may have been there to stop the plunger washer from moving up too tightly on the leather, but only a guess. 
Do you suppose that is caused by the washer shearing off some of the body as it was driven on?
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