No 25 leather re-seal question

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   Thanks, Jay- I find this extremely interesting! It's this type of thing that I enjoy trying to learn from. I don't know if there was a difference in air tubes, between lead and steel shot.
You could clean up the air tube by removing the burr from the ID with a needle file, then you could- carefully- run a 5/64" drill bit into the end to clean it up. The ID might actually end up being 3/32", but starting smaller would be a good idea, IMHO. I've drilled dozens of air tubes to 7/64" in increments. With new 25 air tubes I start with 3/32" then step up to 7/64". The process is uber time-consuming and very tedious. A lathe would make short work of it, but I have to do it with a cordless drill by hand. Point being, starting smaller and working up helps prevent snapping the bit off inside the air tube. On your rare piece, I might not even drill it at all, just dress the tip and leave well enough alone.

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cobalt327 Members Profile Find Members Posts Red Ryder Member Joined: November-15-2013 Points: 3045	Post Options Post Reply Quote cobalt327 Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May-30-2020 at 3:42pm
	Thanks, Jay- I find this extremely interesting! It's this type of thing that I enjoy trying to learn from. I don't know if there was a difference in air tubes, between lead and steel shot. You could clean up the air tube by removing the burr from the ID with a needle file, then you could- carefully- run a 5/64" drill bit into the end to clean it up. The ID might actually end up being 3/32", but starting smaller would be a good idea, IMHO. I've drilled dozens of air tubes to 7/64" in increments. With new 25 air tubes I start with 3/32" then step up to 7/64". The process is uber time-consuming and very tedious. A lathe would make short work of it, but I have to do it with a cordless drill by hand. Point being, starting smaller and working up helps prevent snapping the bit off inside the air tube. On your rare piece, I might not even drill it at all, just dress the tip and leave well enough alone.

Gumslinger Members Profile Find Members Posts Red Ryder Member Joined: March-20-2019 Location: North Florida Points: 400	Post Options Post Reply Quote Gumslinger Thanks(1) Quote Reply Posted: May-30-2020 at 4:44pm
	Mark, this just some literature about the lead-to-steel changeover: “This was about the time when the BB gun changed from shooting lead Air Rifle Shot (sized 0.175-inches) to steel shot (sized 0.171 to 0.173-inches), and that forced some changes in the guns”. (Tom Gaylord) “Steel BBs called for Daisy design changes. Lead BBs were retained in the shot tube by a shot seat: a slight constriction of the tube at the breech end. Upon firing, the BB was literally swaged down as it was forced past the constriction and up the tube. This caused two problems when using steel shot. First, steel did not swage, and the constriction had to be reduced. Second, the air tube…..soon became battered on the end by hitting the [stuck] steel shot. The solution was a thin wire spring fitted into the slot on the end of the shot tube which held the BB in place--but could easily be forced out of the way to allow the shot to pass up tube upon firing”. (Arni Dunathan) In my mind, the air tube itself (in lead guns) had to fit through the built-in constriction in the shot tube, whereas the steel guns had no such limitations. So I wondered if this change was reflected in the air tube specs. Thanks for the tip on drilling. This particular air tube was dented in (down) about 1/8” at the mouth, and then mushroomed wider due to that. I didn’t want to fool with it as I was afraid I would affect the ‘length’ remaining. I still don’t know what length tolerances Daisy allowed, so I will set it aside until I come upon another.

jackdog Members Profile Find Members Posts Red Ryder Member Joined: June-01-2016 Location: Cape may, NJ Points: 399	Post Options Post Reply Quote jackdog Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: June-02-2020 at 12:12am
	JAY.. Can't seem to get my computer to work the way I want and am still having problems, but try to get on the Forum.. Very cool comparison of the two leather plunger heads. I never saw the two (machined and crimped) together like that and it is very interesting. The air tubes appear to be about the same length so that helps if you are replacing one for the other. Also your machined head's washer is way different than mine. Mine is just a flat washer. I would assume the crimps on your washer to s"set" the washer against the head. But who knows. Also I have read many years ago that using the older 25's designed for lead shot , and a newer shot tube with steel BB's was not a good idea. Maybe it ruined the plunger air tube like the one you have. If I ever get my old 25's working again I planned to put a Steel BB shot tube in it and shoot it, but I now have second thoughts about that. What do you think??? Great pics and work on this subject. I wish I had time to work more on it myself. My list is growing around the house... two shot AC units, my wife blew up our oven on Sunday , leaky Kitchen faucet, bad back door knob, and wife's small fountain that sprung a leak and drained the water...... Will get to it when I get to it..
	Aim Straight

Gumslinger Members Profile Find Members Posts Red Ryder Member Joined: March-20-2019 Location: North Florida Points: 400	Post Options Post Reply Quote Gumslinger Thanks(2) Quote Reply Posted: June-02-2020 at 10:26pm
	I feel your pain with homeowner repairs--it keeps me away from the important stuff--like BB guns. As far as steel shot goes (using a newer shot tube) I just don’t know yet. Lord knows how much interesting stuff has substituted for BBs in these early guns. (I think we tried finish nails once). So the battered air tubes might have resulted from these substitutes, and not steel BBs. I just came across a case-colored No 25 that had its loose air tube jammed in the shot tube. Thing is, it is a brass air tube (soft metal), and the business end is in perfect shape. Go figure. Want more to think about? I found this on the blue hang tag that came on No 25s circa 1914 to 1926: “The gun should not be snapped off without having shot in the magazine as it will seriously impair the shooting qualities of this gun”. Jeez, what kid never dry fired his Daisy? “This gun is designed to use lead shot. We do not guarantee the gun when any other kind is used”. (Tag information courtesy of ricksu reproductions)

jackdog Members Profile Find Members Posts Red Ryder Member Joined: June-01-2016 Location: Cape may, NJ Points: 399	Post Options Post Reply Quote jackdog Thanks(1) Quote Reply Posted: June-02-2020 at 11:38pm
	Hey jay thanks for the plug on the tag... It does seem strange they say not to dry fire the 25 , but I seriously do not have any idea how that would do ANYTHING to the mechs.. inside that gun... who knows. I will shoot steel BBs out of my guns if I can get them working again cause I do not think it will do any harm.. For those that want to see the full instructions you referenced here it is:
	Aim Straight

cobalt327 Members Profile Find Members Posts Red Ryder Member Joined: November-15-2013 Points: 3045	Post Options Post Reply Quote cobalt327 Thanks(1) Quote Reply Posted: June-03-2020 at 9:51am
	Guys, the only harm I'm aware of if you shoot steel BBs from a lead shot Daisy airgun is to the shot tube where the restriction is peened or pressed into the tube throat that is there to keep lead shot from rolling out of the tube by gravity. Over time, shooting steel BBs wears this area down to the point that steel BBs will begin to double feed and to roll out of the gun when it's cocked and carried muzzle-down. But as long as a lead shot Daisy gun is used with a shot tube made for steel BBs (it'll have either a magnet or spring clip to hold the steel BB in place) there shouldn't be any issues.

jackdog Members Profile Find Members Posts Red Ryder Member Joined: June-01-2016 Location: Cape may, NJ Points: 399	Post Options Post Reply Quote jackdog Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: June-03-2020 at 10:53pm
	Mark agree 100% Yes I would use a shot tube for steel BBs. Shouldn't do any harm..
	Aim Straight

Gumslinger Members Profile Find Members Posts Red Ryder Member Joined: March-20-2019 Location: North Florida Points: 400	Post Options Post Reply Quote Gumslinger Thanks(1) Quote Reply Posted: August-09-2020 at 1:02am
	Well here it is, the first Variant 1, 1914 No. 25 air tube (I think; other models may have used this style). The other brass air tube is from another (circa 1917?) project gun. I put it here as a comparison. The air tubes are genuine brass pipes, not rolled tubes, so modern brass pipes & a little solder might be substituted to repair broken guns...at least I hope so. Variant 1, 1914 air tube & leather seal: Leather seal = 13/16” diameter by ¼”- thick. Seal back up washer = --23/32” (just shy of ¾”) in diameter --1/16” thick --3/8” center hole Air tube: (brass pipe, not a rolled tube) --11/64” OD (4.35mm) --3 1/16” visible length --3 5/16” length OA --air inlet drilled hole 7/64” --air tube ID 7/64” --air tube wall 1/32" Air tube body: --3/8” diameter shaft (slightly tapered) 10mm --9/16” body collar-diameter (actually a bit smaller) 14mm exactly --cross pin 1/8” to 9/64” in diameter (too distorted now to gauge length)

Yatzee982 Members Profile Find Members Posts Newbie Joined: March-07-2020 Location: Wisconsin Points: 4	Post Options Post Reply Quote Yatzee982 Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: August-11-2020 at 12:51pm
	Great info here, thank you !! It should help me get a leather seal red ryder going again.

oldwizzer Members Profile Find Members Posts Red Ryder Member Joined: February-15-2006 Location: United States Points: 1095	Post Options Post Reply Quote oldwizzer Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: August-11-2020 at 4:42pm
	Great pictures and information, i'm sure this is well appreciated! Ejwills.
	Ejwills