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No 25 leather re-seal question

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cobalt327 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cobalt327 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-24-2020 at 12:49pm
I went through my leather piston/air tube assemblies, all are the crimped type, and all have the raised ridge. The ridge- to me- looks to have been caused by the washer shearing material off of the body. I say that because there are obvious scrape marks on the body leading up to the raised ridge that are not uniformly formed like if it was put there intentionally. I also see disrupted areas on the retainer washer that match them. I'm thinking the piston was assembled on a press that seated the washer a preset amount on the body. In any event, there is no "tinning" present- it's steel from the body.

I also have an old assembled 25, no idea what type it has but I doubt it's old enough to be a machined assembly. I haven't had it apart yet, because it's not been tested so it might not need to come apart, and as little as I know about the 25, it's better that I leave it alone unless it's absolutely necessary to take it apart!
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jackdog View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackdog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-24-2020 at 9:55pm
Mark I tend to agree with you on all points...  I think the ridge on my plunger head is also caused by the washer scraping the plunger head...  Although I could not prove it , it sure looks like that sort of thing.   I picked at it a little but that did not indicate that it was made up of scraping of the plunger head.  Seemed pretty solid, but who knows what pressure and heat was associated with seating that washer...   That being said, definitely not the same kind of protrusion you showed on the crimped head.  
Also if it ain't broke don't fool with it in regards to your other 25. 

If I end up getting a head from JG etc..  one piece of information that is critical is the length of the air tube since I do not have one that is complete to measure.   Any thoughts on the air tube length required?  Has to be short enough to load a BB, but not too short that it goes past the abutment when cocked.
Thanks for update.. Rick
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Gumslinger View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gumslinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-25-2020 at 12:48am
I'm still running down the early plunger heads. I came up with this by sheer accident. It shows the plunger air tube that came out of a Model 2236 Markham King BB gun
Markham & Daisy were side by side in Plymouth from the earliest days. The face of that plunger looks like yours Rick. So now I will kill the shelter-at-home time looking up Markham patents. Anybody got any any idea of the vintage of that Markham Model 2236?




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cobalt327 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cobalt327 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-25-2020 at 5:40am
Maybe the following will be of some use. These are way outside of my wheelhouse!

On the 4 digit model number Markham King guns, the second 2 numbers are the date when the model began, so the 2233 started in 1933 and it ran until 1935. It has pat. no. 1062855 and 880555. 

The model 2236 was 1936- 1941. Has same pat.no. as above

It appears the Markham King model 21 also has a removable shot tube. Version 1 of the model 21 was made 1907-1913. The V2 was 1913-1932. No pat. no. on the ones I found online, though.

ETA- The dates came from the Blue Book, the patent numbers are from guns that were in photos online.
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Gumslinger View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gumslinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-25-2020 at 10:28am
Your wheelhouse must be on an aircraft carrier! Wow, great info to start. I'll be diving into that later this evening. If we can establish these early plunger heads were scattered across many models like Rick suggested for parts usage, it will increase the likelihood of coming across an intact item in a cheap junker we can use for reference. Thanks for  the info.

As an aside, if you order leather 13/16" seals from JLMissouri Parts, they mention that their seals will specifically fit the King 2236.
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cobalt327 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cobalt327 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-25-2020 at 6:18pm
I have seen Pat. No. 880555 and 1062855 on the 111-40 and the 108-39, so I'm thinking that they will be fairly commonly seen. But it doesn't seem that there is a different number for the machined part versus the crimped part.

Just my opinion, but I believe the piston/air tube assemblies are interchangable. One consideration is using either one with a mismatched barrel seal because of how the leather barrel seal becomes imprinted to the piston. But ideally, both seals would be renewed at the same time, and as long as they were, I don't see a problem with using either/or. That is, as long as the air tube lengths are the same or very close. I know the early leather assembly's air tube is longer than one from a new production model 25 or 1938B. Even some early rubber seal guns used a longer air tube in some applications, but unfortunately I do not know which guns, if any, used the long air tubes other than the 25.

I have successfully used modern rubber seals with a modern air tube in a 111-40, so the long air tube may turn out to be limited to the 25- but that's just a guess.
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