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daisy defender model 140 box

Printed From: Daisy Museum
Category: Daisy Airguns
Forum Name: Questions
Forum Description: To help users communicate about Daisy Aiguns
URL: http://forum.daisymuseum.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7873
Printed Date: December-01-2020 at 4:10am
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Topic: daisy defender model 140 box
Posted By: zipper28
Subject: daisy defender model 140 box
Date Posted: May-25-2018 at 9:02pm


Hi
 I was hoping that someone would know what kind of box (if any) a Daisy model 140 would have come in?  Recently one was listed as being original but it appears to be 2 pieces with the gun sitting in a tray and the top lifts off. All the ones I've had (older Red Ryder and Lightning Loader Carbine) are flat tube shaped with flaps on both ends where the gun could be inserted. If anyone could share a picture of one, I would appreciate it. Thanks



Replies:
Posted By: Rick Cates
Date Posted: May-25-2018 at 10:16pm
My Golden Eagle from 1939 has the same box as you describe and it is original.  I purchased it from its original owners brother unfired with the hang tags still attached.  A long story on why it was never taken out of the box.
It also has metal corner reinforcements which is something Gary Garber told me he had never seen before.  Its photo's are in Garbers book.
Just My 2 Cents
Rick Cates
Canyon, TX


-------------
Rick - Lifetime Museum Member


Posted By: oneandgone
Date Posted: May-26-2018 at 12:11am
IMO that box is a repro all day long. It is known that those boxes have been reproduced. I had an opportunity to buy a repro one a couple years ago and did not purchase it because I do not want any repro items in my collection.

How is the box nicer than the gun  which sports, according to the seller, a repro forearm label? The label being repro alone casts doubt on anything else in the lot IMO. That box has no wear. I don't buy it one bit.

Lastly, I have a genuine Model 40 box,  it opens clamshell, and looks 100 years old. 


Posted By: zipper28
Date Posted: May-26-2018 at 9:44am


Thanks 

  That's what I was thinking. I have no problem with a repro box if it's cited as such. Big difference in value for sure. A box for a pre war Daisy would be hard to come by since I would think many were lost in the paper drives during the war.

   I have original boxes for the 141 and 142 Defenders with one in really nice shape and the other rather sad but mostly complete. Both guns tho are in excellent shape.




Posted By: Iceman
Date Posted: May-26-2018 at 3:33pm
I actually contacted the seller and asked if it was a reproduction since there were some that showed up a few years ago.  He stated that the box is indeed original.  I too am still somewhat skeptical.  I have never even seen or heard of a Model 40 box.  Is it possible to post a pic of it?  I would really like to see one.  Thanks!
Star 


Posted By: oneandgone
Date Posted: May-26-2018 at 4:56pm
If you should decide to sell either of those Defenders and their boxes I'd be very interested, zipper.

Ice, I'd love to post pics of the box, but I don't show it off because I don't want to see it reproduced. I will say it's a very simple box, not flashy like the 140 box. 

Anything is possible so who knows, maybe it's original. I just find it awfully hard to believe. The gun is nice. There's just so little wear to the box, even on the inside, and again we know there are fakes. I wonder how long he's had this and where he got it. Provenance of any kind?


Posted By: oneandgone
Date Posted: May-28-2018 at 10:13pm
Another note on this gun... If you look closely at the sling near the end of the barrel...It appears to be stapled together. On mine it is riveted and I'm pretty confident mine is original, down to the original forearm label. The original model 40 slings are riveted. The 141 and 142 are stapled. Thoughts??


Posted By: zipper28
Date Posted: May-28-2018 at 11:54pm

I took another look at my own guns that I'm pretty sure sport their original slings and observed:

40  has rivets and flat hook ends
140,141 and 142 have staples and round hook ends

so based on that I would assume that 140 in question has  a correct style sling...

but that box looks too good to be true IMHO

By the way anyone know where I could get repro boxes for the Golden Eagle or original Red Ryder?  Just for display purposes of course.


Posted By: bangpla
Date Posted: May-29-2018 at 1:09pm

I am seeing your posting about the Defender 141 & 142 boxes.

I would like to ask if you could maybe email me a picture or text to my phone the box for the Defender 142.

I would sure appreciate that.

Louie LeMaster
702-250-1937 cell phone

tatankatoo@aol.com 

Thanks very much.


-------------
Louie LeMaster
Vietnam Veteran 67-68
tatankatoo@aol.com


Posted By: oneandgone
Date Posted: May-29-2018 at 10:52pm
My 140 has flat hook ends, very similar to those on the 40, but not the same. Now I have to get out Gary's book and see what the one in there looks like.... 

Sure do wish that fella had put up pics of his repro label as well. I noticed now there are repro labels on ebay as well. What happened to that gun with box? It was supposed to end today, but seems to have been removed by ebay maybe? It's not in my watch list any longer...


Posted By: Iceman
Date Posted: May-30-2018 at 11:31am
I have done a lot of extensive research on the slings for the defender rifles.  I have concluded that indeed the Model 40 is the only sling that has the flat sheet metal type of hooks on each end.  The webbing is khaki colored and is thinner than the other defenders.  The Model 140 is also Khaki colored and has the round hooks on each end like the Models 141 and 142.  The thickness of the webbing for the 140 is like the 141 and 142 (not the 40).  The Models 141 and 142 is like the 140 except they are od green in color.  I have the 40, 141 and 142 original slings and have searched for the Model 140 khaki sling.  In fact, I was going to make a run at the one on Ebay just for the sling.  I have a suspicion that after he posted on this site, someone may have contacted him and worked a deal for the guns he had listed.  Just a thought!
Star  


Posted By: Iceman
Date Posted: May-30-2018 at 11:34am
Well, I just read a post that apparently he posted the 140 on GunBroker. 


Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: May-30-2018 at 1:09pm
Yeah, his auctions are all gone from fleabay- they probably removed them.


Posted By: oneandgone
Date Posted: May-30-2018 at 1:25pm
Ebay is incapable of being consistent with their own rules.


Posted By: oneandgone
Date Posted: June-17-2018 at 2:09pm
Anyone here end up with this gun? It sold for $390 on gun broker. It was a gamble, but IF the box turned out to be legit, well worth the price. The condition of the gun was very good, so even if the box wasn't legit it's probably still a decent price.


Posted By: oneandgone
Date Posted: June-17-2018 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by Iceman Iceman wrote:

I have done a lot of extensive research on the slings for the defender rifles.  I have concluded that indeed the Model 40 is the only sling that has the flat sheet metal type of hooks on each end.  The webbing is khaki colored and is thinner than the other defenders.  The Model 140 is also Khaki colored and has the round hooks on each end like the Models 141 and 142.  The thickness of the webbing for the 140 is like the 141 and 142 (not the 40).  The Models 141 and 142 is like the 140 except they are od green in color.  I have the 40, 141 and 142 original slings and have searched for the Model 140 khaki sling.  In fact, I was going to make a run at the one on Ebay just for the sling.  I have a suspicion that after he posted on this site, someone may have contacted him and worked a deal for the guns he had listed.  Just a thought!
Star  

Looking at Gary's book again he makes no mention of the sling except to say that it had "a military-style web sling." I'm curious as to what has led to your conclusion of which sling exactly came with these? The hardware on mine is different that the hardware of the 40 or the 141-142. It is a bit of a hybrid if you will. Half round, half flat. 

Given where this gun came from I believe it to be legit and original. Jeff Sipling is a well known collector, seller, and in my opinion, expert. I think everyone would agree that he is honest and wouldn't advertise it as original if he did not truly believe it to be. I guess it would take me seeing several of these guns which are complete and original, all having a different sling to convince me the one I have is incorrect.


Posted By: Iceman
Date Posted: June-17-2018 at 4:10pm
I certainly do not claim to be an expert on any subject.  I have gained a lot of knowledge of Daisy's over the years and still have plenty of room to learn more.  I think we all can agree that the Model 40 has the tan or khaki colored web sling with sheet metal buckle and attachments.  Gary provides great pics and description of this sling in his book.  I have the Model 40 with the original sling and bayonet.  Gary also addressed the Model 141 and 142 as "each sported a green web sling that attached to the barrel and stock.  I also have both Model 141 and 142 with the original green or OD colored slings.  The attachments are round compared to the flat attachments on the Model 40.  Just a note here is that I have seen many 141 and 142 Models sold with a sling that was apparently from a Model 98 or 99.  The slings typically sported an alligator style clamp instead of the buckle.  This leaves the Model 140.  You are correct that Gary does not address the color of the sling.  I have paid very close attention to every Model 140 that I have seen posted for sale, particularly if it sported a sling.  I must say that most Model 140s did not have any sling with them.  I have seen a few Model 140s I believe to sport an original sling.  These guns sported a military web style sling with the rounded attachments and buckle style clamp.  One major difference they all had was they were tan or khaki colored.  So, it is my humble opinion that the Model 140 sling is very similar to the Model 141 and Model 142 with the exception of color.  So, I guess that one could refer to it as a hybrid since it is colored like the Model 40 and constructed with buckle and attachments like the Models 141/142.  I actually can not speak to the hybrid of mixing of round and flat attachments/buckle.  I personally have not seen this type of sling.  I also have the opinion that the webbing on the Model 140 is a thickness somewhere between the Model 40 and Models 141/142.  I also have the Model 140 that I currently have a pristine Model 141/142 sling on it.  I have been searching for the Model 140 sling for many years now. 

Unfortunately, I do not know Mr. Jeff Sipling.  If he is the individual in Branson advertising the Model 140 we have been discussing, I actually made the comment that I would like the buy the gun for the sling only as I believe it is indeed an original sling.  Take a look at it, especially the color.  I have no idea about the box being original.  He said is was.  If so, it certainly appeared to be in pristine, unused condition.  Again, in my humble opinion, I thought the Model 140 itself was average and apparently had something carved on the stock.  

These are my thoughts and opinions on the slings for the Defender rifles.  I have all four hanging on my office wall and enjoy them every day.

Star

             


Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: June-17-2018 at 5:36pm
Interesting discussion in re the slings.


Posted By: zipper28
Date Posted: June-17-2018 at 6:51pm
Yes very interesting discussion. 
 The 140 that I have sports a khaki or tan sling like the 40  but the hardware is different as was mentioned before. The 141/142 slings are very similar to the  140 except for them being olive green. Another thing that I have noticed is that the 40 slings seem to be shorter than the other 3 by about 6 inches or so as observed on my own Defenders.  I too have them hanging on the wall in my man cave to enjoy every day. They kind of grow on you.


Posted By: Rhomsey01
Date Posted: July-08-2020 at 4:44pm
I believe I have the sling for the 140 model. I bought the gun from Baker’s Air Gun in Ohio
Rodger Homsey
513-601-3809


Posted By: keenkutterrick
Date Posted: July-09-2020 at 11:32pm
I had an original 140 box, 20 years ago. It was a one piece box, with end flaps, like a Red Ryder. Great graphics. I'm looking for an original box for a 1953 embossed Red Ryder, with plastic stock. Not the 94 with the dummy hammer. Anybody have one?


Posted By: zipper28
Date Posted: July-11-2020 at 10:12am

I have an original 140 box and it is just as Rick noted. Don't think you'll see too many as with the low production and it being released just before WWII. I imagine many were lost to the paper drives for the war effort.

Does anyone know when and which model first came in a box? My oldest is the Lightning Loader Carbine which I believe first came out in 1939.


Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: July-11-2020 at 11:23am
I don't know which model was the first to come in a box, but I'd also be interested in knowing! According to the excellent info at Daisy King, this model No. 25 Pump Gun is from late 1915 - early 1916:




Posted By: keenkutterrick
Date Posted: July-11-2020 at 10:52pm
Would you consider selling the defender box?


Posted By: zipper28
Date Posted: July-12-2020 at 12:57am

No sorry, it came with a real nice example of the 140. One of my favorite Daisys.

  https://postimg.cc/8sL3GwPw" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Iceman
Date Posted: July-12-2020 at 10:47am
Wow Zippper28!  That is one fine Model 140/box!  Thank you for sharing that pic with us.  Please place me on your list of those who would like to buy it from you whenever the day comes you decide to sell it.

Star


-------------
Steve


Posted By: Rhomsey01
Date Posted: September-19-2020 at 9:54am
I have a defender 140 box for sale


Posted By: Rhomsey01
Date Posted: September-19-2020 at 9:55am
I’ll sell my 140 defender box. It’s in really good shape


Posted By: Rhomsey01
Date Posted: September-19-2020 at 10:02am
Selling my 140 defender box

Rhomsey@aol.com

Make an offer


Posted By: keenkutterrick
Date Posted: September-22-2020 at 12:52pm
Is it a piece box, with end flaps?


Posted By: keenkutterrick
Date Posted: September-22-2020 at 12:53pm
I'm interested, if it's original.


Posted By: keenkutterrick
Date Posted: September-22-2020 at 1:06pm
816 699 8208. Call me about the Defender box, please.


Posted By: zipper28
Date Posted: September-22-2020 at 1:19pm

If this is the same one that's on Ebay right now, I don't think it's an original box. As far as I know an original one would be 1 piece with flaps at both ends. This one is 2 pieces and looks really new. 


Posted By: zipper28
Date Posted: September-29-2020 at 10:12am

Wow I can't believe that box sold for $305 considering it might not be original. A tattered real one sold for more recently but at least you got a gun with it.


Posted By: keenkutterrick
Date Posted: September-30-2020 at 5:51am
It was a reproduction. I had an original. The original was a one piece box, with end flaps. I guy out east made the repros, but never sold them as original. I hate seeing people get ripped off. Someone got a $325 lesson.
.


Posted By: daisyfan104
Date Posted: October-16-2020 at 4:28pm
All,
I searched my computer files for a photo of the box for the 140, and I found one folder that showed a typical tube type box. I believe this box is original.  Then I found another that showed the type of box you mentioned where the gun sits in a plain cardboard tray and had a colorful lid.  Only a small part of this box was visible in the photo of the gun. I am not so certain this box is original. Both boxes have the same graphics.  
The late Bob Spielvogel used to make fabulous boxes of the latter type.  If I ever had the chance to buy one, I'd jump at it.  Next best thing to original and a work of art in itself.
As a side note, Rick Cates was kind enough to share photos of his beautiful No. 50 Golden Eagle that he mentioned above.  He graciously allowed me to use the photos in the 2nd and 3rd editions of my book.  If you have the book, you might want to take a look.
Gary Garber


Posted By: zipper28
Date Posted: October-17-2020 at 1:33pm

Thanks for posting that info about Bob Spielvogel. I always wondered who made the repo boxes. They looked great and were definitely a work of art.


Posted By: Rhomsey01
Date Posted: October-19-2020 at 7:56pm
No body got ripped off. I put a disclaimer in there saying maybe a reproduction
Thanks
Rodger


Posted By: Rhomsey01
Date Posted: October-19-2020 at 8:20pm
I was the one who sold the 140 defender box. I was told by another collector it was real. I collect Daisy Military Guns and double barrels. I’m a collector not a businessman. When Keenkutterrick informed me that the box I listed may be a reproduction I immediately added that important information to the “item details”

I don’t pass My problems onto others. It ain’t right.

When keenkutterrick mentions he hates seeing others getting ripped off, he should mention that a disclaimer was included in the item description once he e-mailed me.   He’s telling a half truth. I would have appreciated if he would have mention I made the correction once informed. That’s what honest people do.

I have nice collection! I have about eight 140 defenders with slings, 7 military model 40 complete with bayonets (rock hard tips)
And 20 double barrels (model 21, 104 and 410). Numerous needle compass buck Jones. I enjoy shooting these guns.

Have a couple of model 104s with no safety holes. 1st addition of the 1st addition of the double barrels

Thank you for allowing me to defend myself


Posted By: Rhomsey01
Date Posted: October-19-2020 at 8:26pm
I was the one who sold the 140 defender box. I was told by another collector it was real. I collect Daisy Military Guns and double barrels. I’m a collector not a businessman. When Keenkutterrick informed me that the box I listed may be a reproduction I immediately added that important information to the “item details”

I don’t pass My problems onto others. It ain’t right.

When keenkutterrick mentions he hates seeing others getting ripped off, he should mention that a disclaimer was included in the item description once he e-mailed me.   He’s telling a half truth. I would have appreciated if he would have mention I made the correction once informed. That’s what honest people do.

I have nice collection! I have about eight 140 defenders with slings, 7 military model 40 complete with bayonets (rock hard tips)
And 20 double barrels (model 21, 104 and 410). Numerous needle compass buck Jones. I enjoy shooting these guns.

Have a couple of model 104s with no safety holes. 1st addition of the 1st addition of the double barrels


Posted By: keenkutterrick
Date Posted: October-20-2020 at 5:22am
That reproduction Defender box, was none of my concern. I contacted the seller as a courtesy, in hopes it might save the seller from a potentially bad transaction. There was no half truth on my part.


Posted By: Rhomsey01
Date Posted: October-20-2020 at 5:45am
As seller I input the disclaimer on item description once I was notified unlike others. You failed to mention that part. That’s the half truth. Let’s put this to rest.



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