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Plastic stocks

Printed From: Daisy Museum
Category: Daisy Airguns
Forum Name: Questions
Forum Description: To help users communicate about Daisy Aiguns
URL: http://forum.daisymuseum.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8184
Printed Date: April-05-2020 at 10:12am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Plastic stocks
Posted By: Gumslinger
Subject: Plastic stocks
Date Posted: March-29-2019 at 8:13pm

Hello, newbie here. I picked up a mid-fifties Red Ryder and got the Daisy bug.

The gun itself cocks & fires, but the plastic buttstock is as flat & twisted as a toothpaste tube. Needing a replacement, I sought to ID what I had (and why it warped so badly). No visible markings, so I filleted it with a Dremel into two mirror halves. This stock is a four-piece item: The stock body itself, (no markings), a false-hammer insert (no markings), a butt plate: logo MPC 2, and a trigger-spring mounted on a insert also marked MPC 2. Oddly, the plastic fore end is a crudely marked MPC 3. A logo search took me to Multiple Products Corp, a former maker of all things plastic, but no apparent ties to Daisy. A Forum search did not yield any clues. So, is this such an old topic that it is no longer discussed? Has anyone ever tackled the evolution of these plastic stocks? By the by, I learned more about warped plastics researching this buttstock than anyone needs to know--including a warning possibly relevant to Daisy collectors. Thanks for any input.



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JCN



Replies:
Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: March-29-2019 at 10:32pm
I remember MPC from model car kits. I doubt there's much known about the evolution of plastic Daisy stocks, could be a tough nut to crack!


Posted By: BSAGuy
Date Posted: March-30-2019 at 6:17am
Hello and welcome toDaisyTalk, Gumslinger.  Great to have you here.  If you can manage it, please post some pics of your dissected stock,  that would be interesting to us all.

I would like to read your "warning possibly relevant to Daisy collectors."  That might help some of us avoid future stock problems.

Like cobalt327, I also remember MPC model car kits from the 1970's.  MPC was a division of General Mills (think Cheerios, etc.) and MPC owned Lionel trains from 1970 to 1986.

Here is a link with more dope on that for anyone who is interested.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel,_LLC#MPC/General_Mills_era_%281970%E2%80%931986%29" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel,_LLC#MPC/General_Mills_era_(1970%E2%80%931986)

      


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Be Prepared


Posted By: Bavaria55n
Date Posted: March-30-2019 at 7:57am
When Daisy first started using plastic stocks they had problems with them warping.
I have a 97 that is a couple of inches to one side. Amazing that it could move that far without cracking or breaking.
Not sure if it was the composition of the plastic or improper curing or both?
They gradually got it under control. Fore ends are also seen with each end drooping away from the gun.
Gary


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: March-30-2019 at 8:20am

Thanks for the replies. I’ll post the pictures soon.

 

The keyword is Cellulose Acetate (CA). This was the newest plastic concoction in the late 1940s. It applied well to the new ‘injection molding’ process. By the mid-1950s problems started to arise. Modern forums covering vintage CA warping include model trains, model cars, Legos, even poker chips and playing cards. The chemical giant Bayer in Germany warned CA products should not be stored above 150-degrees?! In Mr. Dunathan’s book he mentions Daisy’s failure with “Fibron plastic”. [One Google result for Fibron was for a knife handle company…]. But on a 1950s poster for the Red Ryder, it pointed out a “Fiberon” forearm & stock as a new feature. [Again, this word was a dead end, either as a 1950’s brand, a material, or a company]. Maybe it was a proprietary formula for Daisy? As I mentioned in the prior post, my twisted stock had MPC logos, source unknown. CA was also used in ‘modern art’ objects. This is where the true nature of CA is revealed. Plastic preservation has had some serious money thrown at it at the museum level.

To summarize, their findings are that once warping, etc, has begun, you can neither stop, or repair it. At best, you can store it in a way to slow down the process. According to the experts, one of the biggest factors in CA’s demise is moisture (humidity). Worse, the gases released from CA were destructive to other materials stored with it. Specifically, it “corroded metals, and damaged fabrics”. One museum lists it as a ‘malignant plastic’. Another site says the best environment for CA items is in a “well-ventilated area, with the temperature below 68-degrees, and humidity controlled between 30-40%.

Thankfully the next step forward in plastic was polystyrene, which was stable, and could be molded in even finer detail--think: wood grain plastic stocks. I suspect Daisy caught on quickly, as did the model makers and other commercial enterprises. As an aside, there is a model maker who still uses CA (maybe a more modern version?) to cast model horses. From their website:

 

Breyer Models are made of Cellulose Acetate.  The composition of cellulose acetate will not allow it to be glued with everyday adhesives like Elmer’s glue, model cement, or Crazy glue.             For best results, it is recommended that you use acetone to repair your models.  This will soften the plastic and allow the broken pieces to actually bond together. 

 

They go on to say the consumer can straighten bent parts of the model with the heat from a hair dryer.



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JCN


Posted By: BSAGuy
Date Posted: March-30-2019 at 10:12am
Thanks for that information, Gumslinger.  Very interesting.  From what I have read here, warping of Daisy stocks also seems to be associated with long term storage (think a closet) of the gun with muzzle up/stock down.  It makes sense to me that if a gun is leaned against a wall or corner with the weight on the butt that would cause warping.

I wondered about all the drooping Model 94 fore arms that I have seen on eBay and your post and Bavaria55n's explains that phenomenon. 




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Be Prepared


Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: March-30-2019 at 12:12pm
Good info guys! Thanks Gumslinger for posting your findings- very interesting. 


Posted By: Iceman
Date Posted: March-30-2019 at 12:24pm
I have five Daisy rifles with plastic stocks.  Three are lever guns with the plastic forearms.  The other two are pump style guns.  I have had others over the years with the plastic forearms.  The forearms have warped enough that they come loose at the front.  I have managed to jerry-rigged them enough to stay in place.  I really do not like plastic stocks and forearms and avoid them as much as possible, however, there are some that I like well enough to put up with the plastic.  The "plastic" ones I have are the (1972) Model 25 pump, Model 107 Trombone pump, 1894 Texas Ranger, Model 142 Defender, and Model 98 Golden Eagle (Boxed Set).       


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: March-30-2019 at 12:41pm

The reason I posted this info is because I could not find any other information on plastic stocks.

I found the possibility of further damage alarming. Number 1, there are no replica plastic stocks; so what is out there is all that there will ever be. Number 2, I’ve seen some beautiful, seemingly undamaged BB guns with CA stocks at sale or auction. I presume they were either well-cared for, or luckily well-stored all these years. BUT, if the new owner is not aware of the proper care needed, these stocks too, in their new environment, may warp into oblivion.

 

I am new to this Daisy stuff, but I would hope to preserve the remaining plastic-stock Daisy’s to be there for the next generation of collectors. Thanks guys.



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JCN


Posted By: Airitis
Date Posted: March-30-2019 at 1:41pm
I've sen many lever guns with warped forearms but have only had a few straight ones. Now I know why.

Gumslinger, I'm so glad that you have found this information. It's like waiting for a bad event... as if one day we'll wake up to a train load of daisys without stocks or forearms and no hope of replacing them. On the other hand, if replacements were to be produced, the guns still would not be "original".

I think that reproducing original styled wood stocks and forearms would be valuable as a business venture. At least the guns would be in usable condition once again. Even plastic or fiberglass copies would be sometimes welcome. Any thoughts?

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Air-It-Is


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: March-31-2019 at 12:23pm

Frankly, when I picked up this old Daisy I was a little more than surprised I could not readily find a non-warped (or even a replica) stock for this vintage gun. I just wanted to rebuild & shoot it, not even thinking about it as a collector’s item. That is why I looked into this situation, and like you, wonder why nobody has made replica stocks--if only to keep the casual owner from discarding an otherwise nice gun as ‘useless’. Better to keep the old Daisy’s around, original or not.



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JCN


Posted By: Airitis
Date Posted: March-31-2019 at 2:50pm
Yep G.... I believe you and I are of the same mind. I've put several old Daisy guns back in service with a little "innovative" repair. Better to have a fixed Daisy than no Daisy at all.   

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Air-It-Is


Posted By: rexron911
Date Posted: March-31-2019 at 10:10pm
I have a few 94's and a 107 that have this issue of warping. I just look at as a time of daisy evolution.

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Okay, Black Bart, now you get yours!!!


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: April-01-2019 at 2:37pm

One last note for plastic stocks.

 In Dunathan’s 1971 book he states the 1960’s new plastic stocks “have a cast-in texture that feels like wood, and has a variable grain pattern from piece to piece. The hollow plastic thump is gone, thanks to a Styrofoam and steel-ball filling that gives the gun heft and stability”.

 He recalls that in the 1950s, plastic stocks were variously supplied in tones ranging from deep purplish mahogany, through blond, all the way to Ivory. (pg. 79).

He goes on to say that in 1952, the Number 141 Defender was the first Daisy designed specifically for plastic stocks. (pg. 98)

 Newer stocks (wood-grain plastic) do not have any visible manufacturing logos that I can see.

The trigger-spring mount-block is now integral to the stock. Question: did Daisy do all their components in house? Did they move their old production equipment to Arkansas, or did theybuy everything new? I would like to find out who or what MPC was…

            The forearms which I own are marked any one of these numbers: MPC 1, MPC 2, or MPC 3. I don’t have enough of these loose pieces to see if they represent a color code, a production run, or what have you. The style of the forearms seems to be universal, and all seem to warp. One poster in this forum says he has successfully straightened a number of forearms using heat & pressure.

 Dunathan says: (pg 78)

            “By the mid-fifties most lever-action forearms were a common part number A1113, which was grooved for a lightning-loader tube, whether or not the gun had one. Similarly, one common stock, number 211, fit many lever-action models and had a hole for a sling swivel whether or not the model carried a sling. The model 107 slide-action originally had a stock number 1075; this was later changed to a number 960, a 2” inch shorter lever-action stock with the lever area filled in with a piece of folded metal”.

 Well, now you know all I know. Hopefully someone will find more information in the future, so collectors, or I-just want-to shoot-my-gun guys will have a reference of replacement parts to keep their fun guns in useable order.

 PS:  BSA guy wanted me to post the autopsy pics on the Red Ryder stock. They are pretty interesting, but apparently it is very difficult to post pics on this site.



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JCN


Posted By: BSAGuy
Date Posted: April-01-2019 at 3:48pm
Hi Gumslinger, P

Posting pics here does take a little practice, but if you can autopsy a stock and find all the great information that you shared, I know you are more then up to the task.  Here are some photo posting steps for you:

To post photos:

1. First upload your desired photo to a hosting site.  I use Imgur.  Others here use Postimage.

2. When you reply to or start a thread and you want to post a photo, type in your comment, then move your cursor to where you want the photo to appear in your post.

3. Click on the Tree icon in the first row above the window where you put your text (6th icon from the left).

4. This will open a pop-up window titled "Image Properties."

5. In this pop-up window, you will see a blank space in the upper right with a pre-filled "http://" in it.

6. The site where your image is stored will display several types of links that you can copy and use.  Copy the "Direct Link" link.

7. Paste this copied link in the blank space mentioned in #4 above.

8.  If you have a double http:// delete one of them.

9. Just to the right of the blank space where you copied the photo link, click on the rectangular button labeled "Preview"

10. This will cause a preview of your image to open.  It will look YUUUUGE, but that's OK.  It will look normal sized in your post.

11.  At the bottom right of the "Image Properties" pop-up, you will see a rectangular button labeled "OK"

12.  Click on that button and your picture will be visible in your post.


This all sounds more tedious than it is, so give it a try and don't get discouraged.


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Be Prepared


Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: April-01-2019 at 3:59pm
If you don't have any luck, send them to cobalt327 at hotmail dot com and I'll post 'em for you.


Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: April-01-2019 at 5:05pm


Posted By: BSAGuy
Date Posted: April-01-2019 at 8:31pm
Man, that's one wicked twisted stock for sure.  Thanks for posting for Gumslinger, cobalt.

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Be Prepared


Posted By: Dannop2
Date Posted: April-01-2019 at 9:11pm
Man ! , that one looked like it may have seen some time by an old radiator , I guess my 97 isn't all that bad LOL , thanks for sharing and now I know why they are so hard to get back straight . 

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Realshooter


Posted By: FREEBIRD
Date Posted: April-02-2019 at 7:40pm
I had the older model 25 I believe 1952 that was painted but still had the scroll work with a plastic stock and had the"Daisy Creed"? on the but. I really liked the feel of the slimmer checkered pistol grip, and man that thing was powerful. I worked in thermoplastic injection molding for 25 years, and it almost appears Daisy was using old "plunger" type machines, you can see the black marbely color was not mixed in like a screw machine does. It also almost appears they had bad mold designs as well causing un-even shrink rates adding to the warp problem. A good condition early plastic stock model 25 is a nice looking gun, they seem sleeker to me, I would not mind getting another one. Early plastics are also another category to collect.Smile


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: April-02-2019 at 9:19pm
I just want to give BSA guy and Cobalt a thank you for your help earlier. I hope this information helps the community.

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JCN


Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: April-02-2019 at 11:32pm



Posted By: Bavaria55n
Date Posted: April-03-2019 at 9:05am
Here is a shot of one of my warped 97's. I think this one is the worst.
Interesting that with all the bend in the stock the seams are still tightly joined.
Just amazing it could move that much without cracking or separating.

https://postimg.cc/WFLQJsy0" rel="nofollow">


https://postimg.cc/XXnPM16N" rel="nofollow">


https://postimg.cc/SXWg3CZz" rel="nofollow">



Posted By: BSAGuy
Date Posted: April-04-2019 at 5:40pm
That's a crazy set of photos, Bavaria55n.  Good for shooting around corners!

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Be Prepared


Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: May-15-2019 at 10:12am
I just received a ca. 1957 Plymouth made Model 94 Red Ryder that has an MPC branded stock similar to the earlier warped stock, except mine is fortunately arrow-straight. Strange how some warped so badly while others are unscathed. I'll post photos later.

On an unrelated note, anyone remember someone here who was looking for a wide frame plastic trigger module for (IIRC) a model 95B?


Posted By: BSAGuy
Date Posted: May-15-2019 at 12:12pm
Congrats on your unwarped Model 94, Cobalt.  It has found a good home.

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Be Prepared


Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: May-15-2019 at 3:24pm
Thanks, it came to me not shooting but it's just the barrel seal riding the air tube back and forth. Common problem- I have three others in queue w/the exact same thing needing done.

About our earlier conversation, the name was screwnutdeal, found it yesterday. They don't show them anymore, though.


Posted By: oldwizzer
Date Posted: May-15-2019 at 3:49pm
 Gumslinger, thanks for the research on plastic, it pretty much covered the plastic downfall used on early Daisy's. Daisy finally got it right a little too late. I have never bought a plastic stocked Daisy, there is  something about wood that makes it my choice.

Ejwills.


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Ejwills


Posted By: Iceman
Date Posted: May-15-2019 at 5:26pm
Yes, thank you Gumslinger for sharing your research and knowledge on plastics used back in the day.  It certainly provides us with some answers to questions I am sure we all have had!
Star

    


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: January-13-2020 at 11:34am

Last year I was befuddled by Daisy’s plastic parts. Now, I think I can close the thread.

MPC stands for Modern Plastics Corporation. Mucho thanks to the fine people at Argus camera museum. This led me (round-about) to the book “It’s A Daisy” by Cass Hough. Mr. Hough began at Daisy in 1926, and was president upon his retirement in 1972.

He dedicated 5 pages (pg. 247-251) to the trials & tribulations of swapping wood to plastic. He relates that problems between this change, and also the switch from leather-to-neoprene seals, “nearly drove him to his knees”.

 He had been approached in 1948 by a representative of MPC (Benton Harbor, MI). A solid company, which assured Daisy that plastic was the answer. By then the price of wood itself, the transport, the year-long storing, kiln-drying, milling, and finishing (including wood burning of logos) was skyrocketing. It was becoming too expensive to the consumer cost of a BB gun. Using plastic, said the representative, would solve all that. Initially, Daisy began with one model: the Red Ryder. But problems began.

First, there was great reluctance of retail outlets to buying any ‘gun’ without a real wood stock. The plastic parts also warped in storefront window heat, and the colors were unrealistic. The first plastics were also too thin, and cracked if dropped on the ground--especially when cold. But the savings would be huge, so they pressed on, trying new processes, and new formulations.

They finally got it right (more or less IMHO) and convinced retailers that plastic was here to stay. When Daisy moved to Rogers, they found themselves far from their ‘around the corner’ access to various materials--such that they had enjoyed in industrial Michigan. So in the case of plastic stocks, Daisy set up their own injection-molding department and continued this all in-house. They also kept experimenting, until they were satisfied with the quality of their own processed plastic stocks, and then expanded their use to many different models. And they never looked back.



Posted By: oldwizzer
Date Posted: January-13-2020 at 3:23pm
Have the book, love wood, hate plastic.

Ejwills.


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Ejwills


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: January-13-2020 at 4:01pm
Cost or not, I bet Daisy would have sold even more guns back in the day if they had stuck with wood. I totally agree with you.


Posted By: BSAGuy
Date Posted: January-13-2020 at 5:38pm
Thanks for the dope, Gumslinger.  Very informative.

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Be Prepared


Posted By: kstim
Date Posted: January-14-2020 at 12:26pm
I have a 1968 model 25 with a plastic stock, it has some slight warping.  But I must say I prefer the color of the plastic stock to the cheap looking wood on the current production Model 25

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Tim Meyer


Posted By: zipper28
Date Posted: January-14-2020 at 6:48pm
Speaking of plastic stocks, I have a model 98 (not an Eagle) with a monte carlo style stock that I have not seen very many like it. The plastic is strong and heavy with checkering molded in it. The lot number is A402744 making it from 1974. It  has the safety on the side and a separate butt plate that screws into the stock.  Did Daisy use this stronger plastic on any other models? It has a nice solid feel almost better than the comparable wood models.

https://postimg.cc/F19NB8zP" rel="nofollow">
https://postimg.cc/N5Kqhccx" rel="nofollow">
https://postimg.cc/QBkvgNQj" rel="nofollow">
https://postimg.cc/9rRS8Yd8" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: January-14-2020 at 8:49pm

The only types of material I have ever identified for Daisy plastic stocks were Fibron, Fiberon, and Celanese. All basically Cellulose Acetate formulas. I heard somewhere that polystyrene was the next in line, but no confirmation there. I believe Daisy was producing stocks in-house by 1960 or so.

I think they also kept working at improvements in their plastic works. I never heard of a product recall or universal fail of plastic stocks. Daisy apparently was good about repairs and quick turn-arounds, so did they simply swap out warped stocks for new? Or were the warped stocks just a small percentage on new guns at the time? After years, sure, I would expect warped plastic on these surviving guns--but some have not warped at all.

Looking at the warped butt stocks in general, I saw two types of warping. The first was a lazy curve of the whole stock to one side or the other (storage issue?). The second was a “sucking in” near the butt where the internal stiffening rib ended. If the force was greater on one side, the stock veered that way. This might never have happened if the internal rib had completed the journey to the butt plate. Oddly, I have not seen a ‘twisted’ stock, but maybe the stock’s shape prevented that.

In the case of your particular stock, without filleting it open to see its internal structure, one might assume that Daisy’s plastic had finally become stable enough to resist age or variables in storage. Owning an un-warped vintage Daisy is certainly a good find.



Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: January-15-2020 at 12:29am
Originally posted by zipper28 zipper28 wrote:

Speaking of plastic stocks, I have a model 98 (not an Eagle) with a monte carlo style stock that I have not seen very many like it. The plastic is strong and heavy with checkering molded in it. The lot number is A402744 making it from 1974. It  has the safety on the side and a separate butt plate that screws into the stock.  Did Daisy use this stronger plastic on any other models? It has a nice solid feel almost better than the comparable wood models.

https://postimg.cc/F19NB8zP" rel="nofollow">
https://postimg.cc/N5Kqhccx" rel="nofollow">
https://postimg.cc/QBkvgNQj" rel="nofollow">
https://postimg.cc/9rRS8Yd8" rel="nofollow">
Daisy used that stock on several models, all from the '70s (aka the Victor/Heddon years). The photo shows the short-lived model 454 lever action pellet gun over your 98, then a different photo of your 98, and Airitis's gen 1 Model 499 on the bottom.




Posted By: Bavaria55n
Date Posted: January-15-2020 at 8:45am
Thanks for the pictures Zipper and Cobalt.
A friend has one with a stock like that. Only one I have ever seen.
Gary


Posted By: Airitis
Date Posted: January-15-2020 at 9:50am
https://i.postimg.cc/F19NB8zP/daisy-98-088.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
https://postimg.cc/N5Kqhccx" rel="nofollow">
https://postimg.cc/QBkvgNQj" rel="nofollow">
https://postimg.cc/9rRS8Yd8" rel="nofollow">
[/QUOTE] The photo shows the short-lived model 454 lever action pellet gun over your 98, then a different photo of your 98, and Airitis's gen 1 Model 499 on the bottom.





[/QUOTE]

Thanks for remembering my 499 Mark. I was just about to mention it. I really like the shape, straightness and "heft" of that stock. A real adult style!

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Air-It-Is


Posted By: zipper28
Date Posted: January-15-2020 at 10:01am
Thank you Cobalt for the pictures and information. My internet search yielded very little information on this variation. Now I will be able to dig a little deeper.


Posted By: oldwizzer
Date Posted: January-15-2020 at 10:49am
Thanks for posting all the pictures !

Ejwills.



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Ejwills


Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: January-15-2020 at 10:15pm
This thread likely has as much info on these stocks as there is anywhere! (Which is to say, I agree- there's not any info on them to speak of.)


Posted By: oldwizzer
Date Posted: January-16-2020 at 12:33pm
The joy is in the journey!

Ejwills.


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Ejwills


Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: January-16-2020 at 7:56pm
Originally posted by oldwizzer oldwizzer wrote:

The joy is in the journey!

Ejwills.
You hit the nail on the head for me! Some folks like shooting their guns and that's what they get the most satisfaction from, others like collecting and the hunt for them, and I'm sure there are many other reasons we like airguns. For me, I get a lot of enjoyment from researching them. And I get it that a lot of people would be bored senseless by this! lol But I do get a kick out of helping to fill in gaps in the community knowledge base. Well, that, along with all the rest too! 


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: January-16-2020 at 10:45pm

Ditto for my questions on Daisy plastics. Whether or not one enjoys plastic or wood, they are all Daisy's, and when a kid opens up his first box, he doesn’t care what the parts are, or what the history is--it’s HIS first Daisy.

 Also, Daisy made wood stocks for the No. 25 from 1914 to 1952, and that equals about 38 years of production. But they made plastic stocks from 1953 to 2004, and that equals 51 years of production. So there are millions of kids still out there who only knew of, and loved their plastic guns.

That is why I wanted to shed whatever light I could on Daisy plastics. Hopefully the information will help someone to figure out a way to save, or to fix their own gun stocks--to pass them on to the next generation of Daisy nuts.



Posted By: twocompassheads
Date Posted: January-18-2020 at 12:49pm
Very good information here.  I want to give my thought on plastic stocks, why do we find some in very bad condition and some just with a slight warping and some without any warping.  My thought on this is after Daisy took care of the very early stock problem then from that point on it all had to do with storage after you were done with it.  Think about the conditions they were put through, stored in a closet and standing on the stock at a slight angle in the heat of the summer.  Very little air conditioning in the 50's to the 90's.  Also left in the garage or in the trunk of the car in the 90 to 100 degree heat.  Or sat outside on the porch in the sun until it was picked up and brought in.  I think the best way to store in a vertical position is to store it on the barrel with the stock upright or lay the gun down without anything on top of it.  
    I find that the 1894 didn't have the problems that the model 25 pump did.  I only see a slight warp in some of the stocks.  I'm going to cut one in half length wise and see how many bulkheads (bracing) are inside and report back.  I don't have a sacrificial model 25 stock but I bet there is a significant difference in the two.


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Ride and Have Fun


Posted By: oldwizzer
Date Posted: January-18-2020 at 1:44pm
And a great job you do ! 

Ed.


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Ejwills


Posted By: stevec
Date Posted: January-18-2020 at 6:05pm
From what I understand the early plastic was called Bakelite and was very unstable. Took a few years for everyone to get the plastic right. You gotta understand that Bakelite was new and was only used on small things. Doing big things like stocks really tested it.
Stevec


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: January-18-2020 at 7:34pm
Wait--don't sacrifice another Daisy stock! I have already filleted a Red Ryder stock (see the pictures back a few pages in this thread) and have done the same for a No. 25 stock. They are basically the same internal structure. I am currently awaiting a stock from the Powerline series to see what surprise may be in that stock. I will keep you posted.


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: January-29-2020 at 11:15pm

This was an unknown vintage Powerline stock. Easy to fillet (the metal plates were a surprise) but a real bear to remove the injected foam (the foam is injected thru a hole under the buttplate). It was also filled with 250+ steel BBs. The plastic shell was quite robust. I don’t know what the material is, but the smell the Dremel generated was definitely different from other Daisy's.

I wish Daisy had begun their plastic production with a shell this thick. Foam filling or not, with a little thicker wall, their early stocks might have resisted warping and would have been fine today.

 All in all, this Powerline has a nice stable stock. But again--I don’t know it’s vintage, or how long the foam filling continued.

I know it was referenced back in 1971 (The American BB Gun, p81) but I have never heard it mentioned anywhere else, or if it continues today. See the next post for the foamed-in picture.




Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: January-29-2020 at 11:18pm
Follow up picture which did not attach to the prior post.



Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: January-30-2020 at 12:30pm
The stock could be a 1973-'82 model 880 if the buttplate says "Power Line". The end that attaches to the gun being broken off keeps me from saying for sure.

The BBs are what surprised me when I saw them. They look to be concentrated at the pistol grip for whatever reason.


Posted By: BSAGuy
Date Posted: January-30-2020 at 5:33pm
Very interesting dissections.  Thanks for posting.

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Be Prepared


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: January-30-2020 at 5:38pm
The BBs were flat grey, and at first I thought they were lead, but they proved to be steel. I never gave a thought to a rifle's center of gravity, but maybe Daisy was trying to balance something out? It must have been for a good reason. I look at it this way: four stocks like this would have used 1,000 BBs alone. Kind of expensive--unless they were trying to get RID of BBs.Smile
BTW--the butt plate does indeed say 'Powerline'.


Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: January-30-2020 at 6:47pm
Rejected BBs, maybe? It would be interesting to measure some of them to see what their diameter and concentricity looked like.


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: January-30-2020 at 9:33pm
I thought about that too, as they were uncoated BBs. I thought about dropping them thru my drill bit sizer to get a dimension, but here is the problem. They still have residual foam on them. I tried to soak it off via: water, beer, WD-40, gasoline, denatured alcohol, mineral spirits, acetone, and lacquer thinner. Nothing worked. If you would like, I will send you the lot of them to experiment with. Just do not mix them up with your good BBs...


Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: January-31-2020 at 3:35am
Originally posted by Gumslinger Gumslinger wrote:

I thought about that too, as they were uncoated BBs. I thought about dropping them thru my drill bit sizer to get a dimension, but here is the problem. They still have residual foam on them. I tried to soak it off via: water, beer, WD-40, gasoline, denatured alcohol, mineral spirits, acetone, and lacquer thinner. Nothing worked. If you would like, I will send you the lot of them to experiment with. Just do not mix them up with your good BBs...
I can see how getting the cured foam off would be a problem. Acetone cuts it when uncured, but after it cures I guess it has to be mechanically removed, so I don't have anything that will do it either.


Posted By: zipper28
Date Posted: January-31-2020 at 8:55am

You might try burning the residue off then soaking in acetone. Save the beer for later.


Posted By: BSAGuy
Date Posted: January-31-2020 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by Gumslinger Gumslinger wrote:

I thought about that too, as they were uncoated BBs. I thought about dropping them thru my drill bit sizer to get a dimension, but here is the problem. They still have residual foam on them. I tried to soak it off via: water, beer, WD-40, gasoline, denatured alcohol, mineral spirits, acetone, and lacquer thinner. Nothing worked. If you would like, I will send you the lot of them to experiment with. Just do not mix them up with your good BBs...

Try more beer.  For you, not the BB's.  Even if it doesn't work, you won't care!




-------------
Be Prepared


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: January-31-2020 at 3:50pm
Zipper, fire produced an appealing glaze (sigh). I will try BSAGuy's solution and attempt to apply beer until I can no longer focus on the appearance at hand. That should suffice. Cheers!


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: February-01-2020 at 3:36pm
So, my neighbor says, what you want to do is polish them. He grabbed bit of sand outside the garage, put some on his open palm, dropped a few BBs on top, and then rubbed his palms together while we were talking. Dropped them on a towel and ...voila! Clean enough! 
Looking at them I don't know if they were even supposed to be BBs.



Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: February-01-2020 at 4:18pm
Polishing them like that was very clever!

Early BBs all had those tell-tale flat spots on them, so to me, they do look like culled BBs. Tossed out of the production line before plating. What do you think?

OLD DAISY BBs


TARGETEER SHOT


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: February-01-2020 at 9:29pm
Well, of course I had to look it up--me knowing nothing about BB history. In Cass Hough's book "It's a Daisy" (p222) he mentions that in the 1970s, under Air Force contract, Daisy pumped out 35-billion BBs. That is "B" as in billions. So, yeah, there might have been a cull or two...Smile
As an aside, it turns out the only way to manufacture a perfect sphere (like a ball bearing) would be to do it outside of earth's gravity....(and here I thought learning about BB guns would be simple).


Posted By: Dannop2
Date Posted: February-02-2020 at 11:28am
So that's what those UFO's have been doing , should be a bunch of them near Roswell Wink

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Realshooter


Posted By: Airitis
Date Posted: February-02-2020 at 3:10pm
Now I'm REALLY curious as to why those BBs are there in the first place.   Extra weight?   Disposing of unwanted BBs? Stability of the foam? I can't imagine.   Someone must know.   

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Air-It-Is


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: February-02-2020 at 4:28pm
In the book "The American BB Gun" (p81) it says: (regarding improvements on stocks) "the hollow plastic thump is gone, thanks to a styrofoam and steel ball filling, which provides a real gun heft and stability".
So I'm guessing it was all cosmetic...?



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