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No 25 leather re-seal question

Printed From: Daisy Museum
Category: Other Daisy Products
Forum Name: Questions
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URL: http://forum.daisymuseum.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=9556
Printed Date: October-01-2022 at 7:24pm
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Topic: No 25 leather re-seal question
Posted By: Gumslinger
Subject: No 25 leather re-seal question
Date Posted: March-10-2020 at 10:38pm

In resealing the leather No 25s, I realized the plunger head / plunger assembly was different from the newer neoprene seals in a big way. This is better shown in the pictures. The main spring in the neoprene models is secured behind a plunger cross-pin, putting no pressure on the neoprene seal’s backup washer. But the leather-seal plunger assembly has the main spring pressing directly upon the leather seal’s backup washer. Why, I wondered, did the leather seal not get squashed after repeated firing cycles? These older springs are also mighty tight, even on an uncocked gun.

 It appears the Daisy engineers did some close tolerance work, tapering the air tube assembly’s shaft, and using a custom washer to slide up to, but not squash, the leather seal in front of it. This washer gets hammered hard over the years, (probably why they are so hard to remove sometimes) but it seems to have served its purpose.

 Has this ever been discussed before?





Replies:
Posted By: BSAGuy
Date Posted: March-11-2020 at 5:17am
That's great information, Jay and very well explained/documented.  Thanks for sharing this.

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Be Prepared


Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: March-11-2020 at 6:55am
Originally posted by Gumslinger Gumslinger wrote:

Has this ever been discussed before?


Not as far as I know, it hasn't. I agree with BSAGuy's assessment- excellent observation and documentation!

I have a photo taken by a member of THR, hinz57, of the piston/air tube assembly from an early nickel plated 102-36 that shows what looks to be a small piece of metal that is either a piece put there to act as a stop for the washer, or it has been sheared from the assembly by the washer. When he posted the photo, I didn't think to ask about it, and now he's not active there anymore.Unhappy


It's worth mentioning there were at least two, and probably more, different types of the leather piston/air tube assemblies. The two shown
so far in this thread are different from each other.



Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: March-11-2020 at 9:18am
Thanks for the kind replies.
I discovered this by simply questioning whether I could replace the original washers during the re-seal process. You know--a simple swap out from the hardware store. (Fat chance). It seems to be a custom fit by Daisy. Take my measurement with a bit of skepticism--I am neither a machinist nor eagle-of-eye. Far from it.  Also, these are old, banged-up versions of their former selves, strictly from the No.25 model. I don’t have enough experience with other Daisy models to know if this situation exists across the line, but I put this out there so people won’t just place any old washer on their rebuilds without at least looking into it first.

Original leather washer:       (not interchangeable with the neoprene washers)

            --11/16” OD                (.688”)             [just under 3/4”]          17.46mm

            --23/64” ID                 (.359”)             [just under 3/8”]            9.13mm

            --1.57”--1.60” thick     ---------                                           39.8-40.6mm

 Tapered stem size:

            --9/16” OA length

            --21/64” at butt           (.328”)

            --11/32” at midpoint   (.344”)

            --3/8” at the top           (.375”)

 Leather seal: (new)

            --13/16”   OD

            --3/8”        ID

            --3/16”      thick (or less)

 New Version Steel Washer for neoprene seals

            --3/4”      OD

            --25/64”  ID

            --1.57”--1.60” thick

 


Posted By: jackdog
Date Posted: March-11-2020 at 10:32pm

Jay , Thank you for posting this information. Great information and fantastic pics of your Leather Plunger head for the 25.  Analysis of the plunger head washer was very interesting.   I have two 1920 era 25's that both have the same problem.  The Air Tubes are broken off the plunger head.  (see pic).   I thought the plunger head was one piece with the leather washer.  For the love of Mike I have not been able to separate that washer from the plunger head and always assumed it was a permanent washer and not removable.  But now that I see your pictures it seems that they are just stuck on the cone shaped plunger head.  I will try to separate them just out of curiosity.  I Have been looking for new complete plungers for a while.  I hope I can find two.  Thanks. 


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Aim Straight


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: March-12-2020 at 12:31am
I had the exact same thought until I saw a picture on the Internet showing the washer off. In my case I had to destroy the already bad leather washer to get room to 'rock' the washer off. Be very careful not to distort it--I've have yet to find a substitute. Tomorrow I am going to carefully pry the crimped-on cap off the air tube end and see what is under there--and if it is possible to re-attach a missing air tube. 


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: March-12-2020 at 9:21pm

I had a really stuck washer this morning. Now--knowing they are hard to find--I wanted a safer way to remove them for reuse. I found a loose steel washer with a 5/8” ID hole. This is wide enough for the crimped head of the air tube to fit through, but not our stuck washer. I opened the jaws of my bench vise wide enough to clear the washer hole, and placed the plunger head, (air tube down) through the steel washer’s hole. A surprisingly light knock with the rubber hammer and it was off. Safer & easier!



Posted By: jackdog
Date Posted: March-12-2020 at 10:09pm
Jay I'm going try that.  I tried yesterday to hammer one out with the plunger head balanced between two pieces of wood spaced such that the "crimped" head would pass through but not the washer.  Did not work too well, but your solution looks good to me.  Great idea.  Will give it a shot.  Then I need to figure out if I can put a new shot tube on the head.. Thanks


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Aim Straight


Posted By: jackdog
Date Posted: March-12-2020 at 10:13pm
Jay here is another question for you.  How does the air get into the air tube sticking out of the plunger head?  Since I do not have a whole plunger to look at, the air tube must have some sort of hole in it to allow the compressed air to go out the end of the tube...  have a pic of this?   Thanks as always.. Rick


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Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: March-12-2020 at 10:38pm
Yes Rick I am working on that right now. I pried the crimped-on air tube cap off earlier and answered a lot of my questions--your included. I'll post the whole spiel tomorrow.

As far as the 'stuck' of anything mechanical, I swear by a pre-soak with Liquid Wrench.


Posted By: jackdog
Date Posted: March-12-2020 at 11:25pm
OK  good pointer on the Liquid Wrench... thanks.  Will be looking forward to your informative post (as always)...  Rick


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Posted By: jackdog
Date Posted: March-12-2020 at 11:33pm
Here is the front side of the plunger head that I have,, I do not see a crimped area like your plunger heads have.  Am I not seeing everything???  Just another question on this leather plunger which has plagued me for three years...  thanks.  Rick



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Aim Straight


Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: March-13-2020 at 1:31am
Originally posted by jackdog jackdog wrote:

Here is the front side of the plunger head that I have,, I do not see a crimped area like your plunger heads have.  Am I not seeing everything???  Just another question on this leather plunger which has plagued me for three years...  thanks.  Rick

Your assembly is like the one I posted earlier. If you look closely, on this type the air intake port is in the tube itself (see yellow circled area below). The intake hole being located near the base of the air tube combined with the assembly being rigidly held together cause many of them to weaken and fracture- as yours did. Daisy went to a "floating" air tube and synthetic piston in the mid-'50s to cure this issue and that is still in use today. You can read more about it from the patent,  https://patents.google.com/patent/US2758586A/en" rel="nofollow - HERE .

  


I will defer to Gumslinger to explain the air intake path the other type uses. 

I suppose you know already, but in a pinch a synthetic piston can be used in place of the leather piston.

 


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: March-13-2020 at 11:39am
Rick, still getting the pics together for my upcoming post. But I wanted to jump in here quick because I find what you and Cobalt have done in posting your pictures VERY important. Your picture of the face of the 1920's seal is the first I have ever seen anywhere (believe me--I've looked!). Ditto for Cobalt's post. We need more pics like those to help discover the evolution of these parts and what needs to be done for repair or exchange.


Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: March-13-2020 at 3:15pm
For the record, the nickel plated 102-36 where the one I showed came from was made until 1942. So the early style was used until at least 1942. I believe it's possible the newer style Gumslinger showed was made to be more durable, but if that was the case, it still wasn't immune from breakage.


Ultimately a redesign to the floating air tube solved the problem- it was needed when Daisy went to the rubber seals. 


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: March-13-2020 at 3:42pm
These pictures show one type of Daisy No. 25 plunger head using leather washers. All of the examples come from guns with blued, engraved receivers, and wood stocks. They exhibit 5 patents. Mainsprings are generally copper-washed 29+/- coils. Maybe somebody can narrow down the application range for this style of plunger head. Thanks.


Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: March-13-2020 at 5:28pm
More excellent photos!!

Not sure about the number of patents stamped into them, but the blued wood 25s were made as late as 1952.

Any chance you could find the diameter of the wire used on the springs you mentioned? And are these round wire springs, or are they "flat wire" springs?


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: March-13-2020 at 7:34pm
Rick, I think this picture shows your model of leather washer. It shows it with the washer removed, so it is doable. Could you post more pics (in different angles) especially if it shows that little tab Cobalt's image demonstrated.



Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: March-13-2020 at 9:11pm
Mark: (saying I did this right with my Harbor Freight caliper...)

This is from a copper-washed, flat wire, and flat-ground ends spring.

            --Length free =            8.25”

            --Length installed =    7.00”

            --Diameter OD =          0.75”  (13.30mm)

            --Diameter  ID  =        0.52”   (19.45 mm)

            --Spring size = Flat wire is 0.11” (2.94mm) wide (flat) by 0.07” (1.97mm) tall (thick)





Posted By: Dannop2
Date Posted: March-13-2020 at 9:56pm
Well , pretty easy to see why the old guns hit harder , looks like no preload at all on a new one , almost like one of the springs off of a pop gun .

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Realshooter


Posted By: jackdog
Date Posted: March-13-2020 at 9:59pm
Mark, Thanks for the clarification on why my plunger head looks so different then the ones Jay is working on. Your Photos help me a lot.  I knew it had to have a hole or slit in the tube to allow the air to expel.  I think your rationale as to why the tube would eventually break is right on.  The two 25's I have are both pre 1920 so after a hundred years I guess it would have to eventually happen. 
The Patent info was interesting.  I have plenty of synthetic plunger heads , but have been reluctant to replace the originals with them.  I vaguely remember reading many years ago that without the "Oil Here" hole they tend to not lubricate as well as the leathers.  Plus I wanted to at least try to keep them as original as possible...  thanks for the info you provided.  Thoughtful as always...
Rick


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Aim Straight


Posted By: jackdog
Date Posted: March-13-2020 at 10:28pm
Jay, unbelievable pics with nice explanation on the air intake on this type of leather plunger head.

Mine obviously is different then that.  I had to run my mother-in-law to doctors today and did not have time to try to separate my plunger head, but will give it a try tomorrow (I hope)... Did not know there were several types of leather plunger heads...

Great analysis on these and I am learning a lot from your excellent posts.   I'd love to shoot my old 25's someday and you are helping me get there. 

Will try to post pics of my separated head  soon.. Rick

Just an aside... I notice the workable length of the air tubes appear to be much different??? 
I assume they need to draw back far enough to load the next BB, but not far enough to go by the abutment stop and washer.  But the leather one is significantly longer and wonder if you put the rubber plunger in , will it actually work??


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Aim Straight


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: March-13-2020 at 10:47pm
Easy answer is--I don't know. I want to figure that one out myself. In your case what we need to do is come up with is an undamaged plunger-head of your vintage and to physically measure its air tube length/width, etc. Hopefully someone reading this has access to one.
BTW, I remember (from somewhere in a forum) that your type of plunger-head can indeed be cleaned of old solder, and a new air tube inserted and soldered in its place. 
In my case I was shocked to find the air tube only lightly (?) attached to the cap piece. This air tube was already broken off & long gone, so I don't know if it was formed all in one piece, or soldered together from two pieces. More to learn...


Posted By: jackdog
Date Posted: March-16-2020 at 4:53pm
Here are pictures of my plunger head taken apart.  Jay used your technique and it worked very well!
It appears this had a small tab, at least it looks like a tab.  It was not as pronounced as the one Mark showed in his picture, but i am sure it is some sort of protrusion below the collar about 1/16 inch down.  Where the leather washer sat.  It may have been there to stop the plunger washer from moving up too tightly on the leather, but only a guess. 








 


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Aim Straight


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: March-16-2020 at 5:56pm
Great pictures!---they will help a lot! If you can, snap a picture of the 'face' of the piece so we can see the hole where the air tube would insert. I am curious if your style used the same spec's as the next generation of air tubes. That might help a lot in a retro-fit to fixing yours.


Posted By: jackdog
Date Posted: March-16-2020 at 10:01pm
Ok here is the face of the plunger head.... It kinda looks like it been thru WW3, but the picture seems to enhance all the little flaws you really do not notice in person.. Anyway it had a crimp (or more likely  could have been damage) at one point on the edge.   Never could figure that out. But the picture shows it pretty good. 





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Aim Straight


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: March-16-2020 at 10:57pm
Wow, that looks like a find from an archaeological dig.....nonetheless, it looks perfectly serviceable with a new air tube and leather seal. What we need is someone to look thru their BB gun junk drawers and find us an intact unit. If we can get the specs off of it, something could be done to retrofit your guns into shooting shape. Barring that...would it be possible to use later parts in its place? I have no experience with guns of your vintage, and what could be swapped out. I am going to post a link to the No. 25 patents page as some of the sketches there might be of use to you.


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: March-16-2020 at 11:25pm
The patent numbers stamped on BB guns can be viewed as sketches, drawings, and descriptive text here:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/patimg.htm" rel="nofollow - http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/patimg.htm
Once on the site, type in your patent number. For my older No. 25s, I have to type in a 'zero' before my patent number. Like this: my patent # 2,758,586 will go in as 02758586 (no commas). Click "View patent". On the left you can select 'front page', or 'drawings' , or 'full document'. All of these can be downloaded or printed out.


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: March-16-2020 at 11:37pm

Air tube evolution for No.25 in patents:

1,136,470

1913-1915 the No.25 pump gun is described & patented. The plunger head ‘core’ is a machined chunk of metal fitted with an air tube. This air tube is soldered into a socket provided in its metal face. The air tube has an air inlet near its base. A leather ‘packing’ seal is affixed to this ‘core’ apparatus.

 2,204,370

In 1938 a new patent is applied for. One aim of which is to eliminate the soldering operation, and thus eliminating the drilling of the ‘core’ hole for the air tube. Both simply money-saving ideas.

Followed immediately by this:

 2,204,372

In 1938 a concurrent patent is applied for. This is to overcome the recognized breakage of the air tubes in the original design. (mind you--this is 23 years after 1915). The failures were blamed on the air inlet hole in the air tube--believing it formed a weak spot in the tube itself.

So the air inlet ‘cap’ design is patented, leaving the air tube intact with no cut-in ‘weak spots’.

 2,758,586

In 1953 a new patent is applied for, this time to address the air tube failures following the 1938 patent changes. This was blamed on the rigid (metal) mounting previously used. So the well-known rubber-like mounting material was introduced. This did double duty as a leather-seal replacement. [the seal material mentioned in this patent refers to “heat & oil resistant buna rubber”]. It is possible another material was / is used. I have heard the seals referred to as ‘neoprene’.

 A second reason for improvement was due to the 1938-style air tube cap pounding the abutment leather washer to death (“after 10,000 shots…”). The grooved face on the new neoprene piston seal was also meant to protect the face of the new neoprene abutment seal.   [see leather picture]

Daisy quickly realized they needed an "Oil hole" for this new seal, as the guns were seizing up as the neoprene seals jammed in use.





Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: March-17-2020 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by jackdog jackdog wrote:

Here are pictures of my plunger head taken apart.  Jay used your technique and it worked very well!
It appears this had a small tab, at least it looks like a tab.  It was not as pronounced as the one Mark showed in his picture, but i am sure it is some sort of protrusion below the collar about 1/16 inch down.  Where the leather washer sat.  It may have been there to stop the plunger washer from moving up too tightly on the leather, but only a guess. 
Do you suppose that is caused by the washer shearing off some of the body as it was driven on?


Posted By: jackdog
Date Posted: March-17-2020 at 2:28pm
Jay, Very interesting.... I guess after reading that great info you provided  my plunger head is from the first patent variant.  Makes sense this was from my short throw, circa 1918...  I am going to post some other pictures to show (what I think was) the little protrusion or washer stop...
Don't know that it really was that or as Mark suggested something from the washer causing this to form.  It wasn't from knocking the washer off as it was in front of the washer....


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Aim Straight


Posted By: jackdog
Date Posted: March-17-2020 at 2:38pm
Here are two close-up photos of my plunger head... You can clearly see where the metal washer was and the leather washer.  The small protrusion was in front of the metal washer not behind it.  If the washer caused this to form it would have been formed when the washer was installed not taking it off, so who knows how it was formed or was it there intentionally to help stop the washer from jamming up onto the leather.????  You can also see the small "damaged area as I call it" on the edge of the plunger head.  Or is that a tab of some sort they put there?  Its shaped like a rectangle...







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Aim Straight


Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: March-17-2020 at 2:39pm
I wonder of the steel body might have been tinned before the washer was driven into place. The tinning would easily peel up like we're seeing. Possibly from the air tube assembly/sealing process, like if the assembled body with its pressed in air tube was dipped into solder to seal things up, leaving a thin tinning on the body that could be peeled up by the washer. Just thinking out loud here...


Posted By: jackdog
Date Posted: March-17-2020 at 2:45pm
Mark, very well could be that...   Anyone who worked on these maybe could tell us if they were still around...


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Aim Straight


Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: March-17-2020 at 9:17pm
I will go through my old parts and see what I have in the way of leather seals. I know I have 2 or 3 from the 111-40 (they're made like Gumslinger's), but I also have a leather piston with a broken air tube. I'm not positive but it may be the "flat front" type from a No. 25. I'll report back later with what I find.

Can someone come up with what to call the two different types we've seen so far? I'd say to call them 'early' and 'late', but I'm not 100% sure that's correct!


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: March-17-2020 at 10:06pm
I would say that is a safe bet: "early" and "late". But it might be better to say this was in three steps.
1915-1938 (Rick's style), 1938 to 1953, "air cap" style (mine), and 1953-present (neoprene seal and oil hole). These dates are approximate (based on patent application, not on actual factory installation dates). Also, I do not know if this applied across Daisy model lines--these changes were what I found while checking on the No.25 pump gun. Other models predated the No.25, so the early style may go way back in design--maybe even copied from another spring gun line...(Markham or the like). 
No.25 original patent below and a 1917 patent from another's invention. Check out the plunger heads.



Posted By: jackdog
Date Posted: March-18-2020 at 11:39pm
Jay.
I love those old Patent drawings.... We did good work 100 years ago!
Anyway I call mine the Machined plunger head,  yours the Crimped Plunger head and the newer ones, the Rubber Plunger Head. (MACHINED, CRIMPED, RUBBER)    I have another 1920 model 25 Which I HAVE NOT HAD THE INITIATIVE to disassemble.  But I am getting close to doing that , to see what kind of plunger it has.  It works just fine so the plunger should be in good shape.   Will report back with anything significant.
It maybe an intact Leather plunger since there is no "oil Here" hole and it is old.
Rick


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Aim Straight


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: March-19-2020 at 12:09am
Rick, I have been going blind looking at old patents trying to find one for your machined plunger. I went back thru LeFever's pre-Daisy days, CF Hamilton's designs (original creator), etc. I can find nothing specific. I am beginning to wonder if leather-backed plungers go so far back, and were so widely used that the original patents (if any) weren't even relevant to the Daisy designers. Our Daisy patents were simply to protect their specific improvements over time. 
If you do tear into your other 25, please share the info with us. I cannot find any info on the innards of Daisy's of your vintage anywhere. Thanks, Jay. 


Posted By: jackdog
Date Posted: March-20-2020 at 9:54pm
Jay... Thanks for your extra work to find info on the machined plunger.... I am pretty sure what I have is original to the gun, so they must have used this in many of their guns from that era.  One thing I have learned about Daisy they reused a lot of their technology (and advertising, hang tags, etc.) for a lot of their rifles in the early days.  I see JG sells a leather plunger head for the 25.  I have been reluctant to order it not knowing exactly what it is.  They have no picture of the plunger so to me it is pot luck at $40 plus shipping what exactly it is.  Anybody you know bought one from them?  I really do not care if I get a leather plunger exactly like mine, just a leather plunger , and not rubber.

My wife is a teacher and since last Friday now home as they shut the school down due to the China Virus.  Getting some good eats since she is home all day to plan and cook dinner, but man she has gotten  together a nice Honey-do list for me.  Kinda driving me crazy ,  LOL, cause I want to go tear apart that other 25.  Will get to it eventually..  Thanks for the update..
rick




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Posted By: jackdog
Date Posted: March-24-2020 at 12:21am
Jay , thanks for the email information you sent on the leather  plunger from JG.  Will check it out.  Now that they have a picture of the item they are selling I will consider buying one...  thank you.Rick



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Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: March-24-2020 at 12:49pm
I went through my leather piston/air tube assemblies, all are the crimped type, and all have the raised ridge. The ridge- to me- looks to have been caused by the washer shearing material off of the body. I say that because there are obvious scrape marks on the body leading up to the raised ridge that are not uniformly formed like if it was put there intentionally. I also see disrupted areas on the retainer washer that match them. I'm thinking the piston was assembled on a press that seated the washer a preset amount on the body. In any event, there is no "tinning" present- it's steel from the body.

I also have an old assembled 25, no idea what type it has but I doubt it's old enough to be a machined assembly. I haven't had it apart yet, because it's not been tested so it might not need to come apart, and as little as I know about the 25, it's better that I leave it alone unless it's absolutely necessary to take it apart!


Posted By: jackdog
Date Posted: March-24-2020 at 9:55pm
Mark I tend to agree with you on all points...  I think the ridge on my plunger head is also caused by the washer scraping the plunger head...  Although I could not prove it , it sure looks like that sort of thing.   I picked at it a little but that did not indicate that it was made up of scraping of the plunger head.  Seemed pretty solid, but who knows what pressure and heat was associated with seating that washer...   That being said, definitely not the same kind of protrusion you showed on the crimped head.  
Also if it ain't broke don't fool with it in regards to your other 25. 

If I end up getting a head from JG etc..  one piece of information that is critical is the length of the air tube since I do not have one that is complete to measure.   Any thoughts on the air tube length required?  Has to be short enough to load a BB, but not too short that it goes past the abutment when cocked.
Thanks for update.. Rick


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Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: March-25-2020 at 12:48am
I'm still running down the early plunger heads. I came up with this by sheer accident. It shows the plunger air tube that came out of a Model 2236 Markham King BB gun
Markham & Daisy were side by side in Plymouth from the earliest days. The face of that plunger looks like yours Rick. So now I will kill the shelter-at-home time looking up Markham patents. Anybody got any any idea of the vintage of that Markham Model 2236?






Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: March-25-2020 at 5:40am
Maybe the following will be of some use. These are way outside of my wheelhouse!

On the 4 digit model number Markham King guns, the second 2 numbers are the date when the model began, so the 2233 started in 1933 and it ran until 1935. It has pat. no. 1062855 and 880555. 

The model 2236 was 1936- 1941. Has same pat.no. as above

It appears the Markham King model 21 also has a removable shot tube. Version 1 of the model 21 was made 1907-1913. The V2 was 1913-1932. No pat. no. on the ones I found online, though.

ETA- The dates came from the Blue Book, the patent numbers are from guns that were in photos online.


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: March-25-2020 at 10:28am
Your wheelhouse must be on an aircraft carrier! Wow, great info to start. I'll be diving into that later this evening. If we can establish these early plunger heads were scattered across many models like Rick suggested for parts usage, it will increase the likelihood of coming across an intact item in a cheap junker we can use for reference. Thanks for  the info.

As an aside, if you order leather 13/16" seals from JLMissouri Parts, they mention that their seals will specifically fit the King 2236.


Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: March-25-2020 at 6:18pm
I have seen Pat. No. 880555 and 1062855 on the 111-40 and the 108-39, so I'm thinking that they will be fairly commonly seen. But it doesn't seem that there is a different number for the machined part versus the crimped part.

Just my opinion, but I believe the piston/air tube assemblies are interchangable. One consideration is using either one with a mismatched barrel seal because of how the leather barrel seal becomes imprinted to the piston. But ideally, both seals would be renewed at the same time, and as long as they were, I don't see a problem with using either/or. That is, as long as the air tube lengths are the same or very close. I know the early leather assembly's air tube is longer than one from a new production model 25 or 1938B. Even some early rubber seal guns used a longer air tube in some applications, but unfortunately I do not know which guns, if any, used the long air tubes other than the 25.

I have successfully used modern rubber seals with a modern air tube in a 111-40, so the long air tube may turn out to be limited to the 25- but that's just a guess.


Posted By: jackdog
Date Posted: April-07-2020 at 11:34pm
Jay/Mark  I lost my computer a week and a half ago... no email contacts in the computer I am using now...  Jay i saw an email from you right before my computer died, didn't respond or read it and  I don't have your email address anymore... Both of you send me an email so I can back into the loop,,, Thanks.  A new part is coming on Friday and I may be able to recover all my stuff then.  Thanks..

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Aim Straight


Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: April-08-2020 at 5:59pm
That's a bummer! Email sent. 


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: April-08-2020 at 8:56pm
Ditto....Email sent.


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: May-30-2020 at 12:12am

This is from a very early No.25 pump gun. The air tube is soldered into the plunger body approx. 3/16” or so. This shaft seems to be the same dimensions as the next generation “capped” air tube.

Unfortunately this one (and only) example has a badly ‘peened’ end so I cannot determine exact ID or OD dimensions. But, this early shaft is nearly the same diameter as the capped version per caliper. [Question: was there a change for the switch to steel from lead BBs?]. This is a lead BB shooter. The back-up washer is interesting. It has two deliberate punches that back up & dig into the leather washer--reason unknown. Excuse the many pictures, but they will tell a better story.













Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: May-30-2020 at 3:42pm
Thanks, Jay- I find this extremely interesting! It's this type of thing that I enjoy trying to learn from. I don't know if there was a difference in air tubes, between lead and steel shot.

You could clean up the air tube by removing the burr from the ID with a needle file, then you could- carefully- run a 5/64" drill bit into the end to clean it up. The ID might actually end up being 3/32", but starting smaller would be a good idea, IMHO. I've drilled dozens of air tubes to 7/64" in increments. With new 25 air tubes I start with 3/32" then step up to 7/64". The process is uber time-consuming and very tedious. A lathe would make short work of it, but I have to do it with a cordless drill by hand. Point being, starting smaller and working up helps prevent snapping the bit off inside the air tube. On your rare piece, I might not even drill it at all, just dress the tip and leave well enough alone.


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: May-30-2020 at 4:44pm
Mark, this just some literature about the lead-to-steel changeover:

“This was about the time when the BB gun changed from shooting lead Air Rifle Shot (sized 0.175-inches) to steel shot (sized 0.171 to 0.173-inches), and that forced some changes in the guns”. (Tom Gaylord)

            “Steel BBs called for Daisy design changes. Lead BBs were retained in the shot tube by a shot seat: a slight constriction of the tube at the breech end. Upon firing, the BB was literally swaged down as it was forced past the constriction and up the tube.

            This caused two problems when using steel shot. First, steel did not swage, and the constriction had to be reduced. Second, the air tube…..soon became battered on the end by hitting the [stuck] steel shot.

            The solution was a thin wire spring fitted into the slot on the end of the shot tube which held the BB in place--but could easily be forced out of the way to allow the shot to pass up tube upon firing”. (Arni Dunathan)

 In my mind, the air tube itself (in lead guns) had to fit through the built-in constriction in the shot tube, whereas the steel guns had no such limitations. So I wondered if this change was reflected in the air tube specs.

 Thanks for the tip on drilling. This particular air tube was dented in (down) about 1/8” at the mouth, and then mushroomed wider due to that. I didn’t want to fool with it as I was afraid I would affect the ‘length’ remaining. I still don’t know what length tolerances Daisy allowed, so I will set it aside until I come upon another.




Posted By: jackdog
Date Posted: June-02-2020 at 12:12am
JAY..  Can't seem to get my computer to work the way I want and am still having problems, but try to get on the Forum..   Very cool comparison of the two leather plunger heads.  I never saw the two (machined and crimped) together like that and it is very interesting.  The air tubes appear to be about the same length so that helps if you are replacing one for the other.  Also your machined head's washer is way different than mine.  Mine is just a flat washer.  I would assume the crimps on your washer to s"set" the washer against the head.  But who knows.   

Also I have read many years ago that using the older 25's designed for lead shot , and a newer shot tube with steel BB's was not a good idea.  Maybe it ruined the plunger air tube like the one you have.  If I ever get my old 25's working again I planned to put a Steel BB shot tube in it and shoot it, but I now have second thoughts about that.   What do you think???

Great pics and work on this subject.   I wish I had time to work more on it myself.  My list is growing around the house...  two shot AC units, my wife blew up our oven on Sunday ,  leaky Kitchen faucet, bad back door knob, and wife's small fountain that sprung a leak and drained the water...Dead... Will get to it when I get to it.. Wacko


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Aim Straight


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: June-02-2020 at 10:26pm

I feel your pain with homeowner repairs--it keeps me away from the important stuff--like BB guns.

As far as steel shot goes (using a newer shot tube) I just don’t know yet. Lord knows how much interesting stuff has substituted for BBs in these early guns. (I think we tried finish nails once). So the battered air tubes might have resulted from these substitutes, and not steel BBs. I just came across a case-colored No 25 that had its loose air tube jammed in the shot tube. Thing is, it is a brass air tube (soft metal), and the business end is in perfect shape. Go figure.

 Want more to think about? I found this on the blue hang tag that came on No 25s circa 1914 to 1926:

            The gun should not be snapped off without having shot in the magazine as it will seriously impair the shooting qualities of this gun”.

 Jeez, what kid never dry fired his Daisy?

 This gun is designed to use lead shot. We do not guarantee the gun when any other kind is used”.

 (Tag information courtesy of ricksu reproductions)



Posted By: jackdog
Date Posted: June-02-2020 at 11:38pm
Hey jay thanks for the plug on the tag...  It does seem strange they say not to dry fire the 25 , but I seriously do not have any idea how that would do ANYTHING to the mechs.. inside that gun... who knows.
I will shoot steel BBs out of my guns if I can get them working again cause I do not think it will do any harm.. 
For those that want to see the full instructions you referenced here it is:





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Aim Straight


Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: June-03-2020 at 9:51am
Guys, the only harm I'm aware of if you shoot steel BBs from a lead shot Daisy airgun is to the shot tube where the restriction is peened or pressed into the tube throat that is there to keep lead shot from rolling out of the tube by gravity. Over time, shooting steel BBs wears this area down to the point that steel BBs will begin to double feed and to roll out of the gun when it's cocked and carried muzzle-down. 

But as long as a lead shot Daisy gun is used with a shot tube made for steel BBs (it'll have either a magnet or spring clip to hold the steel BB in place) there shouldn't be any issues.


Posted By: jackdog
Date Posted: June-03-2020 at 10:53pm
Mark agree 100%   Yes I would use a shot tube for steel BBs.  Shouldn't do any harm..



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Aim Straight


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: August-09-2020 at 1:02am

Well here it is, the first Variant 1, 1914 No. 25 air tube (I think; other models may have used this style). The other brass air tube is from another (circa 1917?) project gun. I put it here as a comparison. The air tubes are genuine brass pipes, not rolled tubes, so modern brass pipes & a little solder might be substituted to repair broken guns...at least I hope so. 

 Variant 1, 1914 air tube & leather seal:

 Leather seal = 13/16” diameter by ¼”- thick.

 Seal back up washer =

            --23/32” (just shy of ¾”) in diameter

            --1/16” thick

            --3/8” center hole

 Air tube: (brass pipe, not a rolled tube)

            --11/64” OD (4.35mm)

            --3 1/16” visible length

            --3 5/16” length OA

            --air inlet drilled hole 7/64”

            --air tube ID 7/64”

    --air tube wall 1/32"

 Air tube body:

            --3/8” diameter shaft (slightly tapered) 10mm

            --9/16” body collar-diameter (actually a bit smaller) 14mm exactly

            --cross pin 1/8” to 9/64” in diameter (too distorted now to gauge length)













Posted By: Yatzee982
Date Posted: August-11-2020 at 12:51pm
Great info here, thank you !! It should help me get a leather seal red ryder going again. 


Posted By: oldwizzer
Date Posted: August-11-2020 at 4:42pm
Great pictures and information, i'm sure this is well appreciated!

Ejwills.


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Ejwills


Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: August-12-2020 at 7:14am
Thanks for the update- I didn't know any of them used a brass air tube!


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: August-12-2020 at 10:19pm
I was a bit surprised as well, but in this first Variant the shot tube itself is a brass pipe. The shot tube cap is steel, as is the magazine (soldered together into one unit), but I think the brass-on-brass contact between air tube and shot tube when firing was better for wear. I have two photos in my files which show what I believe were brass air tubes, so I was ready for anything. 

The first photo is an air tube from a Markham 2236, and the second photo is from Dave Alpert's photo collage. The third photo is the brass & steel shot tube.






Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: January-22-2022 at 9:22pm

I wish I could insert this info a few pages back, but I’ll settle for tacking it on here. I stumbled across some more information on what we were calling the “capped” style of air tube.

This style was designed in 1938, and patented (2,204,372) in 1940. These 1950 pictures show the three Daisy air tube assembly stations. (My wife believes they could have splurged on more comfortable seats for the ladies!)

It would appear the shafts of the air tubes, and the caps, were pre-assembled together before reaching this point, and from here these ladies would position the body of the air tube on the cap for the final crimping action, making the assembly complete. Hopefully the more shop-minded among us can explain what is going on here, as I may be totally wrong in what I am looking at.

 The last step would have been the slipping on the leather seal and the back-up steel washer.

It wasn’t many years after this picture was taken that the air tube evolved into the neoprene washer era and an entirely new air tube design began.






Posted By: Kenjo7
Date Posted: April-29-2022 at 12:24pm
gunslinger any help on best way to pry the crimps apart to get air tube off   


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: April-29-2022 at 8:19pm
Hello Kenjo7. For this post I had an old air tube assembly already missing its air tube, so I just put the base into a vise and used a screwdriver to back the crimps off enough for removal. The cap's metal crimps  had enough integrity as to not 'snap off' when straightened out. Once off I did not think another air tube could be soldered on--but more nimble members out there might think otherwise.


Posted By: Kenjo7
Date Posted: May-08-2022 at 5:53pm
heck i didn't know it was soldered on, can a tube be found for this type?


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: May-08-2022 at 9:43pm
I don't think the original air tube was soldered onto the 'cap' because in the patent drawing the air tube is flared on the cap end, so the cap-and-air tube assembly was probably machine-pressed together and then crimped onto the body for final use. When I mentioned soldering I meant as a possible repair.
As far as a replacement for the tube (or the whole assembled part) , I think only a salvaged part from another Daisy would be found. Good luck.


Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: June-01-2022 at 8:01pm
This is off topic, but I wanted to add to Jay's cool factory photos above. The photos are from here:  https://mmm.lib.msu.edu/results.php?search=Daisy+Manufacturing+Company" rel="nofollow -

Possibly cutting out the frame blanks from sheet metal


Forming frames from flat stampings

 

Possibly making internal frame structures

 

Looks like testing stock strength

 

QC




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