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Bell Target #21

Printed From: Daisy Museum
Category: Other Daisy Products
Forum Name: Questions
Forum Description: To help users communicate about other Daisy products
URL: http://forum.daisymuseum.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=9993
Printed Date: April-23-2024 at 11:00am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Bell Target #21
Posted By: Gumslinger
Subject: Bell Target #21
Date Posted: August-01-2021 at 2:04am

I guess it was a fit of marketing optimism that Daisy decided to provide its audience with an indoor shooting opportunity, presumably for the snowy months.

 Now, to sell this to the parents (who also had to look at the thing) it needed to be attractive enough to have in the house. The generic bell targets at the time were either plain, industrial boxes, or gaudy, carnival / shooting gallery contraptions.

 So a nice-sized, nickel-plated (and with just enough design flourish) target box was born.

The design fell to Daisy employee W.E. Hawthorne. He submitted a patent application March 1911, and patented it July 1912 (#1,032,060).

 Boy, it was hard to come up with any information on this bell target. The Daisy museum had no information, nor did the internet. So, I took a different tack. I have a copy of Bob Boccaccio’s Daisy Air Rifle Paper Targets and son-of-Daisy gun, there it was.

 Mr. Boccaccio shows a Daisy paper target (circa 1911), the reverse of which has this bell target picture and description. Bob indicates that this is “the #21 Bell Target”, manufactured 1911-1915.

 Subsequently, I found images of this target in period wholesale catalogs, but oddly, I have never seen it advertised for sale, either wholesale or retail. The target card says it was available for 50-cents. So, was it ever sold? Or sold so little that the market fell flat? Anyway, here’s one now.

 By the way--has anybody ever seen surviving paper targets for this thing? I would like to put one together with this bell box just to complete the package. Thanks, Jay











Replies:
Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: August-01-2021 at 1:41pm
Thanks for another very interesting write-up, Jay! I never saw one like yours before now.


Posted By: jackdog
Date Posted: August-01-2021 at 5:39pm
Nice write up Jay!!  Being a Daisy Target collector it was very interesting... 
I have tons of targets for the #27 , #77, and #77B Bell target and a bunch of others for just hanging on a tree or fence. But do not have any I would say were used for the #21 (I always thought this was a #71??).  I do have a nice scan of a #21 Target which I will post...
I have had the 21 target ready to reproduce for my own use for quite some time but did not know what size it should be.  Jay if you measure the frame where the target goes on that #21 I can make you a repo until you find an original.  If you need any #27 targets just send me an email.
Here are some pics:


From my images... Pic of #21 target - front



From my images...Pic of #21 target back



Repo ready to print (front)



Repo ready to print (back)




Some #27 targets I have... Jay email me if you need any for your display.




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Aim Straight


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: August-02-2021 at 12:31am

Rick, I should have known to run this by you first (could have saved me a lot of research). I have here the page from Bob Boccaccio’s 2003 book which ID’ed the unit for me. This was the ONLY reference I could find for this bell target.

Bob's book says this box uses a target 4 ½ ” by 5 3/4”. My cut-to-fit paper gives me a flat paper fit of 4 ½ ” wide by 5 7/16” tall. Now, I must say the four metal corners are not ‘square’ pockets, as they are slightly dome shaped and tight on the outer dimensions. Bob’s reference also says these targets are of “heavy cardstock”, the thickness of which I cannot determine, but as an approximation, a thickness of 10 post-it notes seems to be a rough gauge.

 Rick, for your information I’m including an ad from a 1910 British sporting magazine which features an “Improved Daisy” pellet catcher box. I don’t know if it was a Daisy product.

 By the way, my neighbor was looking over this No 21 box, and said something that might explain why these things are so uncommon. He said: “You know, when this thing was new and shiny I bet it was too pretty to shoot at. No wonder no one bought them…”.






Posted By: jackdog
Date Posted: August-02-2021 at 3:25pm
Jay.. Nice pics and more good info.... Send me your address please. I have it somewhere but too lazy to hunt for it. 
  Using my graphics program and the proportional sizing feature the original image gives me the following actual size:  4.5 inch wide by 5 and 7/16 high... same as you noted.. So that is what I printed them at.  Printed on 110lb card stock and sealed with a grumbacher fixative.   See Pics below.

Never saw the British target box.  I will assume it is not a Daisy product. But??
The price of 50 cents in 1910 is equivalent to $14.30 buying power today.  Maybe another reason why not many were sold... ?

Regards, Rick











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Aim Straight


Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: August-02-2021 at 3:43pm
Rick, those targets turned out great!


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: August-02-2021 at 3:45pm
Outstanding Rick! Thanks--I'll be in touch!


Posted By: jackdog
Date Posted: August-02-2021 at 4:23pm
Thanks Mark.. Instead of doing a lot of photoshop clean-up on these images I kept it looking very aged..

You have my email if you want any just drop me a note...
Rick


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Aim Straight


Posted By: Daisy Pete
Date Posted: August-03-2021 at 12:59pm
The target that I have measures 4 1/2" W x 5 3/8" H. It has your target pictured on the back of it along with the B3 "Daisy Special". 

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Daisy Pete


Posted By: jackdog
Date Posted: August-03-2021 at 9:57pm
Thanks Pete for that info... I actually had this measurement come out at 5 - 13/32 so either 
5 - 3/8 or 5 - 7/16 is in the ball bark for the height of the target.   But it is good you have one and actually measured it.  

If you indeed have this target could you describe the paper weight?  Is it like a newspaper, a piece of paper, or more like a postcard?   Just curious.  Thanks for the post.
Rick


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Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: August-03-2021 at 11:27pm
Yes, thanks Pete for the dimensions. Nice to know some of these vintage targets are in the hands of people who can appreciate what they are. Do you think these were sold in a (tear-off) pack, or sold as individual pieces? 


Posted By: Daisy Pete
Date Posted: August-04-2021 at 10:46am
Jay,
I'm guessing they were bundled with twine in packs of 100 cards rather than in a tear off pad like some of the later cards.


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Daisy Pete


Posted By: Daisy Pete
Date Posted: August-04-2021 at 11:12am
Rick,
Thickness is 0.0120"
























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Daisy Pete


Posted By: jackdog
Date Posted: August-04-2021 at 11:48am
Thanks Pete.  That is a 12pt (110lb weight) card stock thickness,  Helps me a lot.
Regards, Rick


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Aim Straight


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: August-08-2021 at 12:03am

Well, thanks to the reproduction magic of  Daisytalk member jackdog (aka ricksu) I have put the reproduced (circa 1911) target into the No. 21 Bell target. Here is an indoors photo, and an outdoors photo.

 When I read through the patent description, the designer had two uses in mind. One was to shoot thru the paper target and let the lead shot smack into the steel backing (or ring the bullseye gong), and then fall into the box (thru the lower slot) for disposal.

 Or second, the half-inch space behind the paper target could be ‘layered with felt’ so as to preserve the lead shot for reuse.

 Most kids probably didn’t have ‘felt’ available, but cutting up dad’s newspaper to fit behind the target probably worked just as well. If I let my imagination run wild, then possibly back in the spring of 1912 some kid was chopping up newspaper for this purpose, and the headline of  that paper read “Titanic strikes iceberg”.

Or not: as most kids probably cut up the funny pages.Smile





Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: August-08-2021 at 5:16am
Great collaborative effort to resurrect this cool target, guys!


Posted By: Iceman
Date Posted: August-08-2021 at 3:04pm
Jay and Rick, this has been a very interesting read on this very rare Target.  I have thoroughly enjoyed this post.  Jay, thank you for sharing this Target with us and as always Rick, "your the man!"  Perfection!

Star


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Steve


Posted By: Bavaria55n
Date Posted: August-10-2021 at 9:12am
Thanks so much for all the information.
Never knew this version existed.
Gary


Posted By: jackdog
Date Posted: November-24-2021 at 12:00am
Jay, am embarrassed i missed your follow up post on this target and thanks for the kudos.. 
in hospital checking out old daisytalk posts and ran across this one... I was on 50th Anniversary wedding trip with wife on FL.-carribian  cruise .  Love of my life since high school....  Sorry.  



 Always Wondered how those repo targets worked out.  Sorry I MISSED  your follow-up posts.  That target looks great.  Very rare one. 
And great info on the target patent and background use as always from you...  
Thanks to Pete for the info on the target particulars....  BTW my wife mailed your tags today... and to your pal in Texas.. 
Thanks to my friend Steve for comments.

MRI tomorrow then i already told them i am out of here... can't walk well and arms, neck and fingers going numb... I think Agent ORANGE catching up with me.. Have to get my xmas caRds ouT! Prayers appreciated.  can not type well. Sorry

Happy Thanks giving to my friends on Daisy Talk!!!
Give Thanks.   Rick


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Aim Straight


Posted By: cobalt327
Date Posted: November-24-2021 at 8:44am
Rick, you are in my thoughts and prayers. Get well and get back to your family, hearth and home, and of course Daisys!


Posted By: Iceman
Date Posted: November-24-2021 at 10:05am
Rick

I too am so sorry to hear that you are experiencing health issues.  My thoughts and prayers are also with you too my friend.  Get well soon!

Star  



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Steve


Posted By: Airitis
Date Posted: November-24-2021 at 12:39pm
Hope your health tastes a good turn and Thanksgiving day gives you another thing to be thankful for.   Bless you.

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Air-It-Is


Posted By: Canuck1958
Date Posted: November-24-2021 at 1:06pm
Best wishes Rick.


Posted By: Gumslinger
Date Posted: November-24-2021 at 7:35pm
Rick, Giving you my prayers. Keep us posted on your progress. Jay


Posted By: jackdog
Date Posted: November-25-2021 at 12:58am
thanks for support, kind words and prayer support from my friends at DT!  At home enjoying my wine and catching up on things.   Ready to contribute.  This forum is a great for me and enjoy all release from issues,,,  cant type well.
that 21 target is great,  never saw one before
.
Rick


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Aim Straight


Posted By: Dcs15
Date Posted: August-29-2023 at 9:00pm
After doing some research, and from this very informative letter, I just realized that I have a old Daisy #21 chrome target, reads" patent applied for" this was found also with a solid red steel target but has no name. This hardware  was never updated until we bought it in 1990"s. it still has the original price 0f .65 CENTS.  Since it reads pat. applied for I am assuming that it must of 1 of the first ones made. IT IS IN BETTER SHAPE THAN THE ONE PICTURED.

Thinking about donating or selling, can anyone give a value/worth of this target. The chrome is good for its age, you can see chrome on the outside of the bell, doesn't look like the inside of the bell was chrome plated. Thanks for any info. Don from Kansas.


Posted By: jackdog
Date Posted: August-30-2023 at 11:14pm
Don, I think gumslinger (jay) might be better to give you a value estimate than anyone since he has one.
I might be interested in purchasing it. But would depend on how much it would cost since I am not that flush with cash at the moment. L O L. Was nice of you to share your information with us.   Sounds like a nice target.

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Aim Straight


Posted By: Dcs15
Date Posted: September-01-2023 at 9:10pm
THANK YOU.   DOES NOT HAVE ANY DINGS FROM BEING SHOT AT.  I THINK I WILL SELL IT, DO YOU THINK E BAY WOULD BE THE WAY TO GO, WHAT PRICE IS YOUR GUESS.?? THANK YOU VERY MUCH.


Posted By: Dcs15
Date Posted: September-01-2023 at 9:12pm
After doing some research, and from this very informative letter, I just realized that I have a old Daisy #21 chrome target, reads" patent applied for" this was found also with a solid red steel target but has no name. This hardware  was never updated until we bought it in 1990"s. it still has the original price 0f .65 CENTS.  Since it reads pat. applied for I am assuming that it must of 1 of the first ones made. IT IS IN BETTER SHAPE THAN THE ONE PICTURED.

Thinking about donating or selling, can anyone give a value/worth of this target. The chrome is good for its age, you can see chrome on the outside of the bell, doesn't look like the inside of the bell was chrome plated. Thanks for any info. Don from Kansas.


Posted By: stevec
Date Posted: September-02-2023 at 8:57am
Anyone ever get one of the FAKE bell targets. I did. Thing looks so original. Paid dearly for it too lol
Stevec


Posted By: zipper28
Date Posted: September-02-2023 at 2:46pm
I got one of those 77-B Bell Targets off of Etsy a number of years back for 30-40 bucks. Thought they had to be repros for that price and I'm sure they are but really well done. The box is a work of art.  Did the real Daisy target come in the same style box? I have one in a different style box that says Daisy Bell Ringing Target. Might be from the 50's.


Posted By: stevec
Date Posted: September-02-2023 at 5:18pm
Them things looked like the originals but had no stampings on them. Will sell mine for a steal at 75.00 LOL
Stevec


Posted By: stevec
Date Posted: September-15-2023 at 5:23pm
Thinking back on this I have to wonder, who would put in the time and effort to do this. If I remember correctly the guy said he had a case of these when he was selling them. Now I know things can be copied overseas real cheap as I knew some guys that have done this with fake Rolex watches and power tools but a box of Daisy Bell targets. Where is the profit.
Stevec


Posted By: jackdog
Date Posted: September-16-2023 at 3:12pm
YOU WOULD BE SURPRISED ON THE CHEAP COST OF MANUFACTURING IN CHINA  - AS AN EXAMPLE, ABOUT 12 YEARS AGO MY SON AND HIS WIFE WERE IN BUSINESS OF DECORATIVE GLASS PLATES (SOLD DIRECT AND AT TJMAX FOR $25 EACH).  PRODUCED IN USA FOR $8 .  GOT QUOTE FROM CHINA AT $1.23  EACH SHIPPED. HUGE DIFFERENCE. BUT COST THEM ANOTHER $1 TO GET THEM THRU CUSTOMS AND NEWARK, NJ  DOCK.   I WONDER HOW MUCH  DAISY PAYS FOR THE GUNS MADE IN CHINA ????? 
RICK




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Aim Straight


Posted By: stevec
Date Posted: September-16-2023 at 5:19pm
I understand the China thing as I have seen it first hand also but one case of targets, it it really worth it
Stevec


Posted By: Segata
Date Posted: September-21-2023 at 9:56am
I know Target wise for here atleast you can get UK printed cards for not too different a price as the Chinese ones but actual Metal side there can be a big gulf in price and thats with the Chinese ones still being pricey.

Would anyone be willing to put up a High Res scan of the Targets for download? Been looking at making my own and anything acctually Daisy branded seems to be thin on the ground, I've purposely avoided using my Fun Kit ones as I can't get more and haven't scanned them yet.


Posted By: Dcs15
Date Posted: October-29-2023 at 7:54pm
JUST WANT TO LET EVERYONE KNOW WE DECIDED TO LIST THE DAISY =21 bell target on ebay this eve.
With so many wanting to purchase it it was the only fair way to sale THE 1915 TARGET
 Thanks  You can look it up using ebay's advanced search under seller dcs15.



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